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Zeeter · 07-30-2003, 12:34 PM

I don't know how this discussion turned to discussing the merits of batting average, but I'll bite.

Batting average has always been the measuring tool for offensive production. That and Home runs. What's the first thing you look for on a player? BA and HR.

Lately, many statisticians and other people who want to look smarter than everyone else have come to the conclusion that BA is far less important than it once was. Well, for all of you old timers out there, I'm going to take one for the team and defend the batting average.

The best measure of a hitter is his batting average. Sure, he can play "lawer ball" and go for a walk, but unless the bases are loaded, it is not as good as a single, and there is no chance for a double, triple, homer, or an error on a walk (unless it is a wild pitch, which could happen whether it's ball four or ball one).

I'll agree that OBP is very important, and has been neglected for years, but let's not get so carried away with OBP that we ridicule the BA. Me? Unless the guy is leading off, I'd rather have a guy hit .310 with a .380 OBP than have a guy hit .290 with a .400 OBP.

I just did a search on ESPN stats to prove my point and found arguments for both sides. Frank Thomas - low average, high OBP. He has 25 homers though which has produced a ton of RBI's. Edgar Renteria - high batting average, relatively low OBP (when compare to his average). He is right up there in RBI's.

I guess this is why we came up with OPS, to get a better look at the player's production. OPS, however, is not a good representation in all cases as it tends to reward power hitters over lead off/speedy players.
One thing that struck me when looking at the stats was that everyone in the top ten for On Base Percentage has an OBP of almost 100 points or higher than their average except for one - Albert Pujols. His is only 65 points higher.
In other words, while Todd Helton and Brian Giles' OBP are greatly helped by walks, Pujols OBP is not. Pujols is also four homers away from the triple crown right now.
I'm also looking at a guy like Vladimir Guerrero. This guy has steadily increased the difference between his BA and OBP from fifty-something to eighty-something. Yet his runs scored have remained relatively the same. He had more hits and more walks than any time in his career last year and had his best OBP. Yet his RBI's were not as high as he had in previous years (although higher than the last year by 3). It looks to me like Vlad's better OBP has not necessarily made him a more productive batter.
In conclusion, let me just say that I'm not trying to discredit OBP. I am trying to credit BA.

07-30-2003, 12:34 PM	#15 (permalink)
Zeeter Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 46	I don't know how this discussion turned to discussing the merits of batting average, but I'll bite. Batting average has always been the measuring tool for offensive production. That and Home runs. What's the first thing you look for on a player? BA and HR. Lately, many statisticians and other people who want to look smarter than everyone else have come to the conclusion that BA is far less important than it once was. Well, for all of you old timers out there, I'm going to take one for the team and defend the batting average. The best measure of a hitter is his batting average. Sure, he can play "lawer ball" and go for a walk, but unless the bases are loaded, it is not as good as a single, and there is no chance for a double, triple, homer, or an error on a walk (unless it is a wild pitch, which could happen whether it's ball four or ball one). I'll agree that OBP is very important, and has been neglected for years, but let's not get so carried away with OBP that we ridicule the BA. Me? Unless the guy is leading off, I'd rather have a guy hit .310 with a .380 OBP than have a guy hit .290 with a .400 OBP. I just did a search on ESPN stats to prove my point and found arguments for both sides. Frank Thomas - low average, high OBP. He has 25 homers though which has produced a ton of RBI's. Edgar Renteria - high batting average, relatively low OBP (when compare to his average). He is right up there in RBI's. I guess this is why we came up with OPS, to get a better look at the player's production. OPS, however, is not a good representation in all cases as it tends to reward power hitters over lead off/speedy players. One thing that struck me when looking at the stats was that everyone in the top ten for On Base Percentage has an OBP of almost 100 points or higher than their average except for one - Albert Pujols. His is only 65 points higher. In other words, while Todd Helton and Brian Giles' OBP are greatly helped by walks, Pujols OBP is not. Pujols is also four homers away from the triple crown right now. I'm also looking at a guy like Vladimir Guerrero. This guy has steadily increased the difference between his BA and OBP from fifty-something to eighty-something. Yet his runs scored have remained relatively the same. He had more hits and more walks than any time in his career last year and had his best OBP. Yet his RBI's were not as high as he had in previous years (although higher than the last year by 3). It looks to me like Vlad's better OBP has not necessarily made him a more productive batter. In conclusion, let me just say that I'm not trying to discredit OBP. I am trying to credit BA.