Purists: Explain thyselves

[Geiiga]

Okay, I hear a lot of people complaining about pseudo-recent changes in baseball...the wild card system, the DH rule, the league championship series...and I want to know why.

I like the wild card system...if you win your division, you move on, and if you're good, but like the Athletics of last year, in an unwinnable division, you still get another shot.

I like the DH rule. Pitchers suck at hitting. I don't want to watch some guy swing the bat like he's on valium, I want to see an over-the-hill slugger who's too old to take the field anymore.

I really like the expanded playoffs. More baseball for my money, and you get classic moments like the Royals and Yankees clashing at the end of every year in the late '70s.

But, having grown up in a Royals home, not remembering a time before the DH rule (hell, I don't even know when it was instituted), having my very first baseball memory be Jim Sundberg bunting with two strikes in game 6 of the '85 series, and having never really cared that much about what's happening in the National League, it's entirely possible that I just don't know any better. So, purists, educate me.

[Scott Vibert]

[quote]Originally posted by Geiiga:
<strong>Okay, I hear a lot of people complaining about pseudo-recent changes in baseball...the wild card system, the DH rule, the league championship series...and I want to know why.

I like the wild card system...if you win your division, you move on, and if you're good, but like the Athletics of last year, in an unwinnable division, you still get another shot.</strong>

If you aren't the best team in your division, how can you be the best team in your league? If you aren't good enough to be a champion during the regular season, you don't deserve the chance during the post season.

<strong>
I like the DH rule. Pitchers suck at hitting. I don't want to watch some guy swing the bat like he's on valium, I want to see an over-the-hill slugger who's too old to take the field anymore.</strong>

If you are a baseball player, you hit, you run, you field. This isn't slow pitch softball you shouldn't just be sitting around and taking your hacks... that's not baseball. Plus the DH has taken much of the strategy in the AL, when do you see a double switch; now all they do is sit back and play Earl Weaver Baseball, waiting for the 3-run homer; that's not baseball at least not to me.

<strong>
I really like the expanded playoffs. More baseball for my money, and you get classic moments like the Royals and Yankees clashing at the end of every year in the late '70s.</strong>

Can you afford the playoff tickets?... so if anything you aren't getting anything more. What about the Braves-Rockies classic of 1995? I'm not necessarily against expanded playoffs, but there is something inheriently long about regular season games in March and playoff games in November. I do think the Wild Card is horrendous.

The other new invention that you didn't bring up that really stinks is interleague baseball, we get these derranged schedules because we have to accomodate the interleague blocks. Additionally to me some of the luster is lost between having the NL champions vs. the AL champions if the teams have met or have had some common opponents during the season.

<hr></blockquote>

[ 04-07-2002: Message edited by: ScottVib ]</p>

[Lets Go Mets]

I disagree with everything scott said but the DH deal and somewhat with the interleague play. I like baseball the way it is right now

[Geiiga]

I likewise hate interleague play, but, as a Royals fan from the middle of Kansas, there's no other way I'm ever going to see Barry Bonds play in person, so I take it as a necessary evil.

And I guess I just like big, cool postseason action. March Madness gets me nearly as excited as opening day. The football playoffs are fantastic. I like second chances...using your scenario for baseball, the NCAA basketball tournament this year would have skipped the tournament entirely and gone straight to KU/Maryland, without any of the fantastic upsets with Kent State and Illinois and suchlike along the way. I like the unpredictability of not only the outcome, but who's going to be there. And I really despise the idea of my Royals being mathematically eliminated from the playoffs at the All-Star break.

[FastLane]

I heartily agree that DH-ing has taken a lot of the strategy of the game out of the A.L., which is why I am a N.L.-first kinda fan.

I hate the wild card, but love the expanded playoffs....sue me.

I dont like interleague play...but love some of the match-ups it introduces...sue me again!

I absoultely hate the balanced schedule...God, please bring back the divisional schedules so that the rivalries can heat back up!

But mostly, as a baseball purist, I would like to see a Randy johnson at-bat where he loses his grip on a swing and sends the bat hurling into the crowd and kills Bud Selig. THAT would bring joy back to Mudville at last.

[Le Grande Orange]

I think it comes down to simply personal preference.

There are positives and negatives that can be applied to the current MLB setup and the "purist" approach that you mention.

Does anyone still remember the days when the NFL had the goal posts on the goaline and not at the back of the endzone? They had it that way for some 40 years. Which way is better?

Either way could be argued successfully, so it just comes down to each person's interpretation as to what makes that particular sport exciting and interesting to them.

I think it just happens that the baseball "purists" are simply more vocal about their view that other groups are.

[JML]

[quote]Originally posted by FastLane:
<strong>
I absoultely hate the balanced schedule...God, please bring back the divisional schedules so that the rivalries can heat back up!

</strong><hr></blockquote>
They're still using the unbalanced schedule, aren't they?. At first I didn't like it, but I think it makes sense to face teams in your own division more often. It makes the playoffs more like a world series situation; it's the best of each division, instead of the overall best in the league. I can understand why some wouldn't like this, but I like it this way.

[BaseballMan]

ScottVib,

I'll have to disagree with you on the you should win your division. Wild card teams are not
leftovers, the one that wins the wild card is usually a pretty good team. Also if you cant beat the teams win it counts it doesnt matter how many
games you won against mot likely lesser opponents.
Dare i mention Seattle last year or the 1906 cubs
and 54 Indians. Bottom line is you dont win a championship just because of what you did in the regular season. it may help but its only to give your team the home field advantage.
As far as purist goes i dont think theres much tradition left in baseball but thats just the way it is and i guess purists will just have to get use to changes. After all if nothing ever changed we might still be playing with 8 strikes, 9 balls and no league championship game. Not saying change is always better but sometimes it is good.
But as long as your team wins is all that counts

[Night2000]

I'm not crazy about wild cards cause I really can't accept a good team who may have went
86 - 76 beating a team who went 116 - 46 ..
In my mind I just can't accept that the 86 - 76 team would be considered World Champion! It mocks the teams that won the most games in their division. Also not mentioned is how they juiced up the ball and bats, allowing mediocre players to hit with more power and inflating their stats. It also makes a mockery out of the all-time records and stats. Especially the Homeruns.
Example for years Ruth's mark of 60 homers in a season was the record. Then Maris broke it with 61 which was the record. Now with the juiced up ball and bats, the Homerun record is broken nearly every year. These guys of today would be lucky to hit close to 60 in eras of long ago.

[hellfrozeover]

[quote]Originally posted by Geiiga:
<strong>Okay, I hear a lot of people complaining about pseudo-recent changes in baseball...the wild card system, the DH rule, the league championship series...and I want to know why.

I like the wild card system...if you win your division, you move on, and if you're good, but like the Athletics of last year, in an unwinnable division, you still get another shot.
</strong>

I like the wild card as well, I enjoyed seeing the 1998 Cubs in the playoffs.

<strong>
I like the DH rule. Pitchers suck at hitting. I don't want to watch some guy swing the bat like he's on valium, I want to see an over-the-hill slugger who's too old to take the field anymore.
</strong>

I hate the DH. There is no reason why Jose Canseco shouuld still be playing. Same thing with Harold Baines. Frank Thomas should learn how to play 1B again. It also takes a lot of the strategy out of a baseball game. In the NL you worry about, well do I pull out the pitcher for a pinch-hitter in th 5th inning? We've got a runner on second with 2 out, and we're down a run, but the pitcher's been pitching pretty good, and even though he's at 80 pitches the bullpen could use some rest. You dont' worry about that kind of thing in the AL. Pull the pitcher when he's tired, you don't have to worry about it when he's up to bat, and that kind of strategy makes a huge difference. Why do you think the AL traditionally scores more runs than the NL? Because instead of pitchers who usually drive in 3 runs a year, you have other guys batted 9th who drive in 90 runs apiece. The only DH I like is Edgar Martinez, but he used to play 3B, and I'll bet still could, albeit pretty badly. Plus I love to see guys like Mike Hampton slug 7 homers, that's right just 7.

<strong>
I really like the expanded playoffs. More baseball for my money, and you get classic moments like the Royals and Yankees clashing at the end of every year in the late '70s.
</strong>

I also have to say that I like this.

<hr></blockquote>

In addition, I hate interleague games EXCEPT for Cubs-Sox games....those are great. BUT, if that idiot Selig would get rid of interleague play, I can live without the crosstown games. Besides the Cubs have no problem selling out the stadium, it's the Sox who can't sell more than 19,000 a game even when they were in 1st place back in 2000.

[Malleus Dei]

The wild card/playoff system is wrong because it rewards whoever is hot at the very end of the season instead of who did the best job all season long.

Baseball is not about having the hot team right now. It never was. Baseball is about about being the best team in your league over a season.

When they broke the leagues into divisions after 1968, they really broke the game. Then they added the twin horrors of free agency and the DH, leading us to such atrocities as teams of overpaid mercenaries assembled just to win a World Series and then disassmbled once they had done it (e.g., the Marlins) and overpaid one-dimensional DH's who cannot field and who just got up every once in a while and take a few swings.

Also, as was pointed out, using the DH essentially destroys a large portion of baseball strategy.

Then there is artifical turf. People have trashed this to death here and other places, so all I will say is that it is yet another abomination. And expansion, my God how that has just sucked.

All these things were and remain abominations. Essentially, they took a great game and turned it into a shadow of itself.

I was playing, watching, and attending baseball games before 1969. Many of you have no idea just how much better the game was then (and may not be even able to comprehend just how much better it was because you weren't there to see both the old game and the new game) but I was indeed there, and the old game was to the new game as 40-year-old Scotch is to cheap generic rotgut. (They will both get you drunk, but there's no comparing the two otherwise.)

And, like I say, I was there. And, no, despite what your dad or granddad may say, not everything was better in the old days; many, many things have gotten MUCH better in this country since 1968. Sadly, baseball is one of the things that went the other way.

[Draft Dodger]

I'm so-so on wildcard - I think it waters down the teams that get to the series (more chances for the better team to get knocked off, more opportunity for a team like the Marlins to get hot and win it all). On the other hand, it does almost guarantee that a playoff race will go down to the wire. Overall, I'd be ok if the wildcard went away.

DH - personally, I think the best thing about the DH is that it helps give 2 seperate, distinct leagues. I wouldn't like the DH if it was in BOTH leagues, but I love that it's in one. When there was less player movement, you used to say "the AL is a better hitter's league, and the NL is the pitchers leagues." I LOVED having that distinction.

Interleague? I guess I could deal with it if they did it right, and alternated the divisions you play every year (maybe they've already started that - I know they were talking about doing this at some point). I see no reason why the Cubs and WhiteSox need to play EVERY year all of a sudden...

[blmeanie]

-Hate the wildcard, but if it exists...please do not give the wildcard team a home game - all games should be at the park of the BETTER team. Better defined as having more wins...

-DH - field a position damn it! Surprised Bud hasn't figured out the arguement that the DH has added to the increase in team salaries and the overall loss of money by franchises...

-Interleague - don't like it, takes away from the beauty of Dodgers/Yankees in the 70's type of rivalry when two teams only can meet in the W.S.

-salaries, ticket prices, beer prices - don't even get me started...

[thatsnotpr]

[quote]Originally posted by Geiiga:
<strong>...using your scenario for baseball, the NCAA basketball tournament this year would have skipped the tournament entirely and gone straight to KU/Maryland, without any of the fantastic upsets with Kent State and Illinois and suchlike along the way. I like the unpredictability of not only the outcome, but who's going to be there. And I really despise the idea of my Royals being mathematically eliminated from the playoffs at the All-Star break.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I can't say I agree with that reasoning.

The reason the tournament exists is for the teams like Kent State who don't get the opportunity to play big schools on a regular basis. The only way Kent State gets in is to win their conference.

In college basketball, a team plays 30-35 game schedule, against roughly 7-9% of the NCAA. In baseball, you play every team in your league plenty of times...enough to prove if you belong or not.

Another thing...the NCAA's are a one and done tourney...so we're really comparing apples and oranges.

[HerbD]

My opinions:

I was born in 1972 so to me the DH is pure baseball cause that's all I know...it's always been there for me.

I hate interleague play...if the Mets and Yanks are gonna battle it out in the series then I don't want them to have any regular season meetings at all. It takes away from the World Series and the All-Star game.

I like teh wild card for one reason...1993...I watched the Giants win 103 games while the Braves won 104. The best playoff race I've ever witnessed. But when it was all said and done the Giants had to watch the Braves play the Phillies in the playoffs. Someone said "how can you be the best in your league when you're not even the best in your division?" Well that year the Phillies were the THIRD best team in the NL and they got to go to the post season.

Just my thoughts!

[shunt]

I am a purist in the sense of baseball needing to be an intense strategy driven game...

hit and runs, stolen bases, having a great double play combination, spot relivers, etc....

thats why im an expos fan...due to their limited budget, they have to rely on strategy rather than big kRazy creatine heads to smash the ball to the next town...

[GiantsRule]

I'm 15 years old but I have a lot of opions on the changes of baseball.

- I hate the DH If you're going to hit you'd better be able to field, Come on Edgar Marinez should be in a retirement home

- I hate the unbalanced schedule it just gives advantages to the teams that are in weak divisions. Come on "purists" if you hate the wild card you should hate the unbalanced schedule because it doesn't determine the best teams.

- I am in somewhat in favor of interleague play.
First reason it brings out the rilvaries. Sox-Cubs Yanks-Mets Angels-Dodgers
On the other hand it takes baseballs distinction away. Now baseball is like the NBA and the NFL where everyone plays everyone. Last year the used the NL and Al west played eachother. This year the giants play the yankees in the regular season. That is simply not cool. So I think they should restore it to the old interleague play. If you read this entire post you are truly a baseball purist.

[Tree]

If there were a DH in the '20s, Babe Ruth never would've hit a home run.

I despise interleague play because it fouls up the schedules (even worse than unbalanced schedules do) and it takes all the lustre from the All-Star game and some from the World Series.

I don't mind the wild card. I hate the too-many-teams-in-the-playoffs scenarios that exist in every other sport in the country, but baseball is still below 1/3 of the league. As long as it remains so I'll be happy. What I DO mind is a 5-game series in the first round. OK, we'll let the 4th-best team in the league into the playoffs... and then give them a BETTER chance of upsetting the best team? What's that crap?

I still don't understand the beef with expansion. It "dilutes the talent," you say? Sure, take away everyone from outside the USA and Canada and you've got a 10-team league. But we've got guys coming from the Dominican, Japan, Cuba, South Korea, and everywhere else that plays baseball. The talent is there, so why SHOULDN'T there be that many teams?

Speaking of purity of the game, can we please bring back the 154-game schedue? Pretty please?

[bamf909]

I hate how people complain about the good old days of baseball, and exaggerate about how great the players in the early 1900's were, especially at batting. You can look at people back then and it seems like half of them have averages that are about .360. But before people go around claiming that things like expansion teams have watered down baseball talent, they should look at OBP of some of the old timers. if you bat .360 but have an OBP of .361, then you are no better than someone who bats .315 and has an OBP of .415

just my thoughts

[Shorty]

expansion is sweet - really the reason i like it is kind of stupid- i like so many baseball players, i want to see all the crappy bench warmers playing every day too!

i love the wild card. i wish it was even 8 teams per league in the playoffs ala NBA. It adds so much excitement.

anywhoo, i like the dh because once again goes back to #1 i hate seeing playrs on the bench not getting their abs in.

i just disagreed with everyone. damn.