Player Creation Modifiers & Major League Equivalencies

[f.montoya]

Player Creation Modifiers:
Modify the average attributes of players created by the game

Major League Equivalencies:
Influence the Player Creation Modifiers ONLY when starting a new game.
The purpose is to force the game to decrease or increase the creation modifiers to create players of higher or lower ratings/quality to fit the description that YOU specify.

Example#1: You want a Japanese league and an American league in your universe, starting in the year 1920. In 1920, scouts probably would have estimated that a Japanese player that hits .290 in Japan would maybe hit .250 in the U.S.. If you want to replicate these standards to start your universe, use the Major League Equivalencies and the game will create players to fit this. However, as time passes and greatly depending on financial influences, these equivalencies will not remain consistent. If more and more money is offered in Japan, then there will be an influx of talent and thus the gap between the quality of play will decrease.

Example #2: You want an American League with all minor league levels. You want the ratio of Superstars to Average Joes to be similar to real life. Using the Major League Equivalencies to set your minor leagues to certain levels ensures that the game doesn’t create too many “Major League ready” players at the start of your game. In this case, the Major League Equivalencies serve to reduce the quality of players created by the factor you specify. In effect, you don’t get 300 teams worth of players with similar average quality. This is important when starting a fresh game because the game is creating players of all ages to fill your universe. Also, remember that at the start of your universe, the game will create a great portion of players that are already fully developed. After this, the Major League Equivalencies will have no influence for the lifespan of your universe.

Without the Major League Modifiers, you could, in effect, use the Player Creation Modifiers to produce similar results but they would end up influencing all players created from the parent league to the rookie leagues and you may need to call on SkyDog’s expertise to get it right otherwise you’ll see a lot of stats produced that you may not like.


EDIT: Please see my Post #150, 152 & 163 in this thread. Some focused studies brought about confirmations and definite answers which necessitated amending this original post.

[andymac]

Originally Posted by f.montoya

Without the Major League Modifiers, you could, in effect, use the Player Creation Modifiers to produce similar results but they would end up influencing all players created from the parent league to the rookie leagues and you may need to call on SkyDog’s expertise to get it right otherwise you’ll see a lot of stats produced that you may not like.

Could you expand on this a bit?

Let me explain to you how I have been approaching this. I have been trying to set up the MLB & Japanese leagues to where they interact much like they do in real life. I set the MLB Equivalency for both leagues to 1.000, but I lowered pretty much all of the Japanese Creation Modifiers a bit (I made these decisions through setting a "base level" for the Japanese League at .920 and then modifying the modifiers from there by comparing Japanese league totals to MLB league totals).

I then just left the Japanese minor league equivalencies at default because I couldn't find any type of league totals for that league and wasn't sure what level it was on compared to the Japanese Major League.

Now, you mention that I could see stats that I don't like with this setup, but shouldn't the stat output come from the League Totals modifiers??? If I find the ratios from that league compared to MLB & adjust shouldn't I be able to get comparable numbers to the Japanese Profesional League. Obviously I then have to decide if I think I have the Japanese Creation Modifiers correct by seeing how players who leave that league and go to MLB perform and possibly adjust some things, but is my approach sound??

[f.montoya]

About stat output, I defer to SkyDog for further explanation on how these are controlled. But remember that the Player Creation Modifiers will produce players, year after year, at the same average talent levels and potentials that you set when you started your game(provided you aren't planning on changing them).

The way you set up your league actually did this...

Both your Japanese and American leagues will start out their existence as equals, meaning that the game has created two sets of players to the same factors. Only after your amateur drafts season after season, will you see the (talent/potential) gap widen between your American League and Japanese League due to your Player Creation Modifier settings.

[andymac]

Originally Posted by f.montoya

About stat output, I defer to SkyDog for further explanation on how these are controlled. But remember that the Player Creation Modifiers will produce players, year after year, at the same average talent levels and potentials that you set when you started your game(provided you aren't planning on changing them).

The way you set up your league actually did this...

Both your Japanese and American leagues will start out their existence as equals, meaning that the game has created two sets of players to the same factors. Only after your amateur drafts season after season, will you see the (talent/potential) gap widen between your American League and Japanese League due to your Player Creation Modifier settings.

Wait, so on the initial game creation the Player Creation Modifiers aren't used at all??

[f.montoya]

I might add that League Totals Modifiers cannot stop the game from producing 10 or 20 players who regularly hit 65 homeruns a season. However, the Major League Equivalencies can be utilized to avoid this kind of issue at the outset of your universe. Without using the MLE or setting them to 1.000 for every level of every league, the game could produce such an abnormal situation. The league totals will be fine overall but you won't be happy with the stats being compiled by large handfuls of players.

[f.montoya]

Originally Posted by andymac

Wait, so on the initial game creation the Player Creation Modifiers aren't used at all??

Think of the Creation Modifiers as making the "ratings" and the MLE as giving you a starting point from which to judge stats between leagues that don't play eachother. The Creation Modifiers do work at the creation of the game stage but are modified by the Major League Equivalencies to distribute and to keep the ratio of superstars to average joes in line with what you want.

However, if you want really push the envelope on this, try to set your creation modifiers too low(0.200) and your MLE too high(1.500), you're going to throw the whole thing out of whack creating players with lower ratings that can actually hit and pitch very well, in any league. But several who can' even hold a bat.

[f.montoya]

I recommend running some small tests with very few teams and a couple of leagues. In increments of 0.100, adjust the MLE and/or the PCM to see what actually happens after creation. Then run through a season.

[Carplos]

Major League Equivalencies:
Influence the Player Creation Modifiers ONLY when starting a new game.

After this, the Major League Equivalencies will have no influence for the lifespan of your universe.

Huh? I find this hard to believe, mostly because my own testing I've done:

1) How does the game know what level to create incoming prospects at? Markus himself has said it generates current ratings based on the lowest level of minors.

2) It should mean that if you leave the PCM at 1.000 for future seasons, even with low MLEs, it would generate prospects with modern MLB potentials. However, in the leagues I've tested, it doesn't do this if I keep low MLEs. In fact, if I want prospects to be generated with higher potentials than usual for a league, I've increased the PCM over 1.000 and it's worked great.

3) I was also under the impression that MLEs were used at least partially by the AI to decide where minor leaguers should be in the organization. Beta testers answered questions regarding MLE and their ability to allow you to create non-default levels of minors (i.e. separate high and low A.)

I mean, if they don't have any effect after the universe is created, what's the point in leaving them in the setup for us to edit? Not to mention that it would seem to cut back on our ability to customize our universe over time (i.e. making a more comparable to a better league over time, or vice versa.)

[Carplos]

Just to be sure, I simmed some of my UK/Ireland universe to allow it to create young players for a couple of years. It has ridiculously low MLEs, so that there's very few players who have 10s in batting or pitching categories. All the PCMs are at 1.000, except for fielding. The rookies generated are no better than the original creation process. From everything that was said before and since the game was release, this seems to be how it's supposed to work. A bit confusing... but once you figure it out, it works really well.

Unless I'm really, really misunderstanding you somehow.

[Joe Canadian]

It's amazing that the development team has said very little on such an important subject...

[f.montoya]

Originally Posted by Carplos

Huh? I find this hard to believe, mostly because my own testing I've done:

1) How does the game know what level to create incoming prospects at? Markus himself has said it generates current ratings based on the lowest level of minors.

Some things are being confused with others. In this case, it's not a "level" so much as it is a "rating". The creation of the game and creation of future draft pools can't be compared because they are two very different parts of your game. Yet the sole function of the PCM is to create a set of humans to certain specifications, whenever that job is needed, be it at game creation or draft pool creation. There is no lowest level of minors at game creation for the AI to compare to, so don't see how this could function as you say Markus says. Also, there would be a lot of complaints if it worked that way because just the act of having a Rookie league would inhibit the game from producing enough players to satisfy the player development curve.

Originally Posted by Carplos

2) It should mean that if you leave the PCM at 1.000 for future seasons, even with low MLEs, it would generate prospects with modern MLB potentials. However, in the leagues I've tested, it doesn't do this if I keep low MLEs. In fact, if I want prospects to be generated with higher potentials than usual for a league, I've increased the PCM over 1.000 and it's worked great.

??? I believe there's more confusion or maybe you are understanding exactly the difference...in your own way. Yes, if you increase the PCM over 1.000 you will get prospects in future seasons generated with higher potential. If you set the MLE to 0.250 and leave it that way, it doesn't affect future created players. The reason some confuse this is they may see, at the game creation stage, that the ratings of created players look much different than those of players created for future draft pools. The reason lies in the fact that the game is producing a wider spectrum of athletes when starting a game as opposed to younger, more raw group that fills the draft pools, year after year.

Originally Posted by Carplos

3) I was also under the impression that MLEs were used at least partially by the AI to decide where minor leaguers should be in the organization. Beta testers answered questions regarding MLE and their ability to allow you to create non-default levels of minors (i.e. separate high and low A.)

The AI evaluates player ratings for just about everything in the game and will manage promotions and demotions based on ratings. While the MLE settings might influence the gaps where level of play are concerned at the outset of your newly created universe, there are simply too many variables and events that would cause the gaps to fluctuate afterward. After all, if you move several superstar players from the highest level to the lowest level, wouldn't that naturally increase the level of play in that league?

Originally Posted by Carplos

I mean, if they don't have any effect after the universe is created, what's the point in leaving them in the setup for us to edit? Not to mention that it would seem to cut back on our ability to customize our universe over time (i.e. making a more comparable to a better league over time, or vice versa.)

Good point. Why not remove them. Maybe in the future, adding leagues to our universe will become possible and they'll be needed. For now, I leave you with a quote from Markus that pushed me into a week and a half in the dark until I came out with the above assessments...

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

MLE's are basically a different version of the player creation modifiers, and they get used in fictional player generation (important especially when initially creating the game when there are minor leagues).

[endgame]

Originally Posted by Carplos

2) It should mean that if you leave the PCM at 1.000 for future seasons, even with low MLEs, it would generate prospects with modern MLB potentials. However, in the leagues I've tested, it doesn't do this if I keep low MLEs. In fact, if I want prospects to be generated with higher potentials than usual for a league, I've increased the PCM over 1.000 and it's worked great.

You've almost translated the process, at least as I understand it. You're just placing the emphasis on a different comparison. Once the league's players are created with the Equivalency as the standard, the PCMs are used to control future creation of players relative to the MLE. In saying leaving them at 1.000 doesn't seem to create any better players than when the league was first created, you're right. You're, in effect, leaving the comparison to MLE at 1.000 - it's not MLB, the original standard for MLE comparison, anymore. When raising the PCM above 1.000 it's increasing the potential of the player relative to the league (or original MLE you defined). That's why you see the increased performance potential.

There's always that possibility that I've misconstrued what Fidel's been saying, or haven't articulated my own understanding well enough. I hope that clarifies my interpretation, if nothing else.

Fidel can correct me if I'm blatantly errant here in any way, but this is the concept I've worked with and demonstrates its integrity to me.

[Carplos]

If you set the MLE to 0.250 and leave it that way, it doesn't affect future created players.

I'm still somewhat confused and the way you're explaining MLEs is probably why. If they have no effect on future created players, why when I leave PCM all at 1.000, does the game generate players with potentials as low as the original players (or whatever I've changed the MLEs to since)?

Keep in mind that I'm only confused by the explanations, I have my leagues working as I want them, it just seems to me they don't work exactly as you're explaining.

Once the league's players are created with the Equivalency as the standard, the PCMs are used to control future creation of players relative to the MLE.

The reason I'm confused is because he said the MLE had no effect after initial player creation, which doesn't seem to be the case at all.

As I said, everything's working fine for me, I'm just trying to figure why I things seem to be working for counter to what f.montoya is saying.

[f.montoya]

Carplos, you may be seeing exactly what the MLE's and the PCM are expected to be doing. However, in understanding and being able to articulate what Markus intended them for we must see what effects are being produced. I, along with endgame have seen the MLE's as standard setters (at the game creation stage) for different levels of leagues within one universe and PCM's as controlling the future draft pools. Again, while intended for this, this is not to say that PCM's could not, in some way, accomplish 'standards' on their own without MLE's in the first place, but as Markus has stated, these are very useful tools at the game creation stage for creating fictional players for multiple levels.

To see them working in tandem, try the following experiment:

Create a simple league with one level of minor leagues.
Set the PCM to 1.000 and set the MLE to .750 and create the league.

Next, create the same league but set the PCM to .800 and the MLE to .750

Notice the ratings drop among players in the parent league in the second test league? You've set a standard. But now you've got a minor league with only a 0.050 gap in the overall quality of players as compared to the parent league, meaning there are probably more players near ready for promotion here that would be the case in your first test league (1.000/0.750).

If you don't see this in such an experiment, then there is a bug because that's what they are meant to do.

Of course if anyone is abusing the settings to the extremes, which I'm not sure why one would want to do so, then you may see variations that may not seem normal.

[Joe Canadian]

So if I understand this correctly... if I want a league that has a MLE of .800, then to see consistency approc. around that level of play for the continuation of the league I am to set the PCM as .800 as well?

[Simmo13]

Joe, sorry to follow your question with one of my own but if I set up a fictional league with three levels of minors starting in the 1900's (Deadball) and roughly following MLB history do I need to do any more than check the totals modifier and player creation modifier boxes as recommended in section 3.4.10.2 of the game guide ?

[dougaiton]

This looks to be the thread to ask this in:

Does PCM and MLE skew the BABIP results, because you are creating more 'sub-average contact' batters without changing the BABIP of pitchers, and because fielding does not adjust in tandem? If so, will minor leagues always be pitching leagues?

[f.montoya]

Originally Posted by Joe Canadian

So if I understand this correctly... if I want a league that has a MLE of .800, then to see consistency approc. around that level of play for the continuation of the league I am to set the PCM as .800 as well?

Yes.

[f.montoya]

Originally Posted by Simmo13

Joe, sorry to follow your question with one of my own but if I set up a fictional league with three levels of minors starting in the 1900's (Deadball) and roughly following MLB history do I need to do any more than check the totals modifier and player creation modifier boxes as recommended in section 3.4.10.2 of the game guide ?

Another incarnation of the creation modifiers is the great tool Markus implimented called "Automatically Import Historical Player Creation Modifiers" option which will produce players that will help fictional leagues mirror historical eras. I'd recommend this as opposed to dealing with MLE and PCM.

[jarmenia]

Originally Posted by f.montoya

Carplos, you may be seeing exactly what the MLE's and the PCM are expected to be doing. However, in understanding and being able to articulate what Markus intended them for we must see what effects are being produced. I, along with endgame have seen the MLE's as standard setters (at the game creation stage) for different levels of leagues within one universe and PCM's as controlling the future draft pools. Again, while intended for this, this is not to say that PCM's could not, in some way, accomplish 'standards' on their own without MLE's in the first place, but as Markus has stated, these are very useful tools at the game creation stage for creating fictional players for multiple levels.

To see them working in tandem, try the following experiment:

Create a simple league with one level of minor leagues.
Set the PCM to 1.000 and set the MLE to .750 and create the league.

Next, create the same league but set the PCM to .800 and the MLE to .750

Notice the ratings drop among players in the parent league in the second test league? You've set a standard. But now you've got a minor league with only a 0.050 gap in the overall quality of players as compared to the parent league, meaning there are probably more players near ready for promotion here that would be the case in your first test league (1.000/0.750).

If you don't see this in such an experiment, then there is a bug because that's what they are meant to do.

Of course if anyone is abusing the settings to the extremes, which I'm not sure why one would want to do so, then you may see variations that may not seem normal.

In reading this thread I've become much more confused about a subject I thought I understood pretty well. To try and get my head back facing forward perhaps it would be better to explain how the game creates players? This is a guess but perhaps someone in the know can clear it up.

1) Inital Player generation. - This uses the MLE. The game generates "Major League Players" and then multiplies their ratings (both potential and actual) times the MLE. Lets try an example:

Player A is 35 and has the following potential ratings 55, 60, 40 and has actual ratings of 53, 60, and 22. If the MLE was set to .800, Player A's ratings would then be adjusted to potential of 44, 48, 32 and actual of 42, 48, 32. Is this correct?

2) Amature Draft Player generation - This uses the PCM. The game generates "Amature Players" and then multiplies their potential ratings by the PCM. Another example:

Player B is an 18 year old HS kid. The game generates his potential ratings as 60, 75, 77. If the PCM for these three ratings were 1.1, .9, and 1.0, his potential ratings would be set to 66, 69, 77. His actual ratings would be generated based on the method for amature players.

To sum up how I think this works is that the MLEs are use to generate current players while the PCMs are used to generate amature draft players. If I am wrong in any of this, can you please correct me as I'm probably just as confused as everyone else.