PCM and MLEs, again

[BPS]

I'm very pleased with version 12260. Markus et al have put in heroic work to transform the game from poorly implemented (when initially released) to very good in a short number of weeks. Bravo.

Yet, being Johnny One-Note, I'm still bothered by one issue: the operation of PCMs and MLE. I don't see how you can create a wide-ranging universe without knowing how these two things work/interact.

A clear statement about how these things are supposed to work (by someone in the know) is all I want.

Before folks jump in and say, "but it's very clear in the manual" or "This is how I think they work", be aware that many people don't find manual clear at all about the operation/interaction of PCMs and MLEs. And a number of people have tried to say how they say these things work but many disagree with one another. Now I've seen reference to the possibility that the Dream Team has turned their attention to these things but have so far failed to come to any clear understanding. They too appear to be uncertain about how they operate, or are supposed to operate, or if a bug is involved, or if the manual is correct or not.

I don't recollect even a single response from those "in the know" in any thread in which PCMs/MLEs are discussed.

In previous posting on this topic folks have jumped in and said, "well, maybe the operation of these things is a state secret" or "maybe even the game designers don't know how they interact" and so on. Perhaps such things will again be posted here by those on the outside.

But I'd certainly like to have some "official word" about PCMs/MLEs. Previous requests for such a thing have, so far, been met with silence.

[btheflash]

Here's an "official" response:

There's something about MLB Equivalencies that bugs me.

I don't know how helpful it is, since the same information is in the Game Guide.

[BPS]

Originally Posted by btheflash

Here's an "official" response...

I appreciate your attempting to clear things up but a number of threads such as possible bug in amateur draft player creation TT-2332 exist that indicate that what happens in the game re PCMs/MLEs is different from what is in the manual and that, in any case, the explanation in the manual leaves many questions unanswered.

[JohnVee]

Any offical word forthcoming?

[dougaiton]

I have an unofficial word: USE PCMs, THEY NOT BROKEN. DON'T USE MLE's, THEY BROKEN.

Basically, MLE's are kind of a quick work-around to create .x worse players than whatever your Major-League's PCMs are (i.e. if you have Power PCM at .y, then in AAA, there power modifier will be .x*.y). However, there are a couple of weird things about them:
1) There is no fielding MLE
2) This may be related to 1), but whatever coefficient should there to keep a constant BABIP doesn't seem to work (or at least didn't - I haven't tried in a couple of builds).

MLEs only have one useful role in the typical league creation - when creating an initial league, the different levels of minors and their MLEs' affect player creation.
For example:
ML:1
AAA:0.7
AA: 0.5
The game will create x players at 1*PCMs, x players at 0.7*PCM, x players at 0.5*PCM.

So, basically, use MLEs for initial player creation so that you have the correct ability players at different levels, but if you want to create player pools with different abilities, use the PCMs. Whether MLEs give odd results because they are bugged or because there is no fielding MLE is a question I've not really seen answered.

Anyway, PCMs should be used to fashion the player pool as you see fit. The MLEs should be used if you wish to create proportionally worse players for your minors. If you wish to set up an International League as a minor league, use MLEs. If you want to set it up as independent, DON'T USE MLEs, but instead edit the PCMs.

MLEs won't affect anything after the initial draft, as far as I understand. Amateur drafts are entirely affected by PCMs.

I know, I know... it's clear as mud.

[Carplos]

I know, I know... it's clear as mud.

But entirely accurate in my experience.

[Kemp]

Originally Posted by dougaiton

MLEs won't affect anything after the initial draft, as far as I understand. Amateur drafts are entirely affected by PCMs.

Wow, are you sure about that last statement????? If so, that completely changes my understanding about MLE's and PCM's.

I haven't actually started running any "real" leagues yet (just tests) but I was planning on using MLE's only.

This is a RIDICULOUS topic to be guessing about. I can't believe someone hasn't clarified this by now.

[dougaiton]

Originally Posted by Kemp

Wow, are you sure about that last statement????? If so, that completely changes my understanding about MLE's and PCM's.

Well, I'll clarify:

The Inaugural Draft player creation creates players to fill each minors level, and it calculates those players abilities based on MLEs for each level of league you have.

The Amateur Draft player creation only uses Major League settings which, for the most part, will only be PCMs (if for some reason you edit the MLEs on your big league, then they will affect that too).

If you set up an International League, or any minor league specification (Winter League etc.) as a separate league altogether, independent of any major league affiliation, it's MLE's may be lower than 1.000. If that's the case, you want to switch those MLEs back to 1.000 and change the PCMs instead. Otherwise, you will run into BABIP problems.

In general, if you want to edit the player pool anytime after the inaugural draft, use PCMs. PCMs give you the opportunity to edit fielding ratings, which keep the league BABIP in check.

Note that when editing PCMs, don't edit the Running Ratings in line with the league unless you specifically want slower players. Even if you set the league to all .300s, or something, to keep 'normal' stolen bases, GIDP and triples, keep the Running Ratings at 1.000.

[Kemp]

Originally Posted by dougaiton

The Inaugural Draft player creation creates players to fill each minors level, and it calculates those players abilities based on MLEs for each level of league you have.

The Amateur Draft player creation only uses Major League settings which, for the most part, will only be PCMs (if for some reason you edit the MLEs on your big league, then they will affect that too).

I understand what you're saying but this is NOT how it has been explained in the past. In past posts it has been said that MLE's affect ALL drafts (inaugural and subsequent amateur). It's been stated that amateur drafts use MLE's in order to create a population of players "targeted" to fill each level of the minors (based on their MLE's).

I can't say I know either way as I haven't tested it. Has anyone created a huge test league and done an analysis of amateur draft pools that have been impacted by MLE's? I'll probably do something with this tonight.

[Carplos]

Judging by other threads, players for amateur drafts or rookie fa pools are generated based on your PCM at some default level (possibly the default Single A settings. Which, to say the least, is incredibly annoying as far as customization goes.

[Kemp]

Originally Posted by Carplos

Judging by other threads, players for amateur drafts or rookie fa pools are generated based on your PCM at some default level (possibly the default Single A settings. Which, to say the least, is incredibly annoying as far as customization goes.

The way I understood it was that amateur drafts were affected by BOTH PCL's and MLE's. It was a cumulative affect.

See my post here.....
Player Creation Modifiers & Major League Equivalencies

Second from the bottom. That's how I understand this stuff to work. Of course that's based on reading posts and the manual - I haven't actually tested any of this myself yet.

[ctorg]

I created a universe where I had a major league and several independent leagues. A couple of the indies were very low paying leagues, where superstar players would make about 100K. I left all PCMs and MLEs at 1.

Much to my surprise, when I created the initial universe and did a draft, the distribution of talent was right in line with the levels of pay in each league. Even though PCMs and MLEs were all 1 in all leagues, leagues that paid very little had guys who would have trouble making an A-ball team as their best players.

It makes me wonder if MLEs really do anything at all.

[dougaiton]

Originally Posted by Kemp

The way I understood it was that amateur drafts were affected by BOTH PCL's and MLE's. It was a cumulative affect.

See my post here.....
Player Creation Modifiers & Major League Equivalencies

Second from the bottom. That's how I understand this stuff to work. Of course that's based on reading posts and the manual - I haven't actually tested any of this myself yet.

Yes, but only if MLEs are applied at the major league level. If MLE's are simply assigned to minor-leagues attached to a major league with MLE's set at 1.0000, then they may have no affect on the creation of players post-inaugural draft.


Here's Markus' very few words on this issue - the way I read it, after the inaugural draft, the MLEs cease to affect amateur drafts:
possible bug in amateur draft player creation TT-2332

I'll press for an official word.

[Kemp]

Originally Posted by dougaiton

Here's Markus' very few words on this issue - the way I read it, after the inaugural draft, the MLEs cease to affect amateur drafts:
possible bug in amateur draft player creation TT-2332

I'll press for an official word.

Not sure which posts/quotes in there were "Markus' very few words" but I'm still quite unsure about how all this works.

My league universe looks like this:
Major league with 2 minor league levels
2 Independent leagues
4 Feeder leagues (that provide players that the Major league can draft. Don't ask, I'm going to do it manually!!)

Based on the way I understand MLE's and PCM's, I was going to use:
Major league MLE = 1.0
Minor leagues MLE < 1.0
Independent leagues MLE < 1.0
Feeder leagues MLE = 1.0

I figured the players created for Feeder league amateur drafts would need to be Major league quality (eventually) so I made those 1.0 leagues.

How the heck can anyone create ANY universe without understanding how MLE's and PCM's work?? Seems kind of silly that we need to beg for someone to explain how these items, which are integral to the game, work.

[dougaiton]

Originally Posted by Kemp

How the heck can anyone create ANY universe without understanding how MLE's and PCM's work?? Seems kind of silly that we need to beg for someone to explain how these items, which are integral to the game, work.

Indeed. Markus has said somewhere that the formulas are very simple - if we could learn those formulas, and exactly whom they affect, we could have a real good go at working out how to use them.

[BPS]

The silence continues...

[The Wolf]

I'm not trying to be negative here, but some official word on how these work would IMO be very appropriate.

[darkenigma510]

I agree. If work on patches is going to slow down or discontinue, it would be nice to get an official word on this.

[Kemp]

So I ran a quick test tonight. I created a large league (60 teams) and affiliated 1 minor league with it (again, another 60 teams). I made the MLE's for the minor league affiliate .001 in every category. I then got to the inaugural draft and exported all the ratings finally importing them into MS Access.

I then did the same exact thing but with MLE's of 1.0 for the minor league affiliate. Again, gathering all the data in Access.

For now I only looked at the HITTERS overall potential score but here's what I got....

<DELETED TO AVOID CONFUSION. SEE POST ON NEXT PAGE FOR NUMBERS>

This is fun. We should definitely run scores of tests to try to guess how this works.

(sorry)

[sovereignstar]

I think a better test would be to compare two separate major leagues with different settings.