1.0.2 (Final version) now available

[jbone]

Okay,

First off, I do say that in many ways, they still do release in many ways, a great game, and I should have recognized that. I have enjoyed ootp2006, though I maintain that the types of experiences which I have had with ootp2006 should not be the case.

When I first discovered SI Games, it was after CM01/02 was released, the final patches were pretty much made (except for one). The game was mind-boggling, absolutely amazing. I had never experienced something so prolific in a computer game, and it captured my imagination the way no other game ever has.

That is why I continue to buy the games. This might be the kind of thing that one can only understand if they had been there when CM01/02 was current.

The outraged reaction from a harsh, critical british public was almost overbearing when CM4 was released. A lot of people lost confidence in SI, and rightfully so. Many steps have been made since then to improve their FM product, though it doesn't have the same addictive (for better or worse) "feel" of CM01/02, that so many old users long for. And I and so many others spent so much time trying to master "Ray Houghton's training routines" that later turned out to be completely arbitrary in result - the entire system was replaced later.

People have mentioned that there are bugs in every game which comes out, and I do understand the nature of that. But there is a difference between human error and negligence, and I has seen that line crossed many times over the years by SI. The huge list of fixes for this game is emblematic of that. The was never, to the extent it is now, the case of ootp games past. Now you hear the complaining - the difference is quite obviously that SI Games is involved with this one.

I do understand that some of the posters who responded to my post are very close to this company and game. I do also feel the Markus has a good vision for this game and that bringing it to SI, with all of their capabilities, will ultimately be a good call. Yet also please respect that the things that I do say about SI are not the product of one experience, but the experience of many years. I have read more posts about SI, good and bad, than I even I could possibly imagine.

SI Games is still a great company and can and has produced great things. Yet it's my responsibility to point things out to them as well, and though I don't feel that they are intentionally unethical, I do feel that there is a continued irresponsiblity to their practices which can be defined as unethical.

Thank you and I still very much appreciate everyone's work with the game.

Jamie

[Solonor]

Originally Posted by Kaitiaki

Forgive me for possibly an obtuse question, but how do you do this? I've been able to find the buttons to create, archive, and upload the league files from within the game easily enough, but I can't seem to locate a button to let players in my league download the files from within the game.

Am I missing something very obvious?

- Kai

It is an option on the Game menu called "Load Online League File". It only shows up when you have loaded a league with the online stuff setup and are signed in as one of the human team GM's.

We have tried this out with our online league already, and it has been a HUGE help.

[Kaitiaki]

Originally Posted by Solonor

It is an option on the Game menu called "Load Online League File". It only shows up when you have loaded a league with the online stuff setup and are signed in as one of the human team GM's.

We have tried this out with our online league already, and it has been a HUGE help.

Thank you. Intriguingly, the button doesn't seem to appear when signed in as an owner who is also Commissioner. But now that I know where to look, it's there for everyone else.

Much obliged.

- Kai

[Solonor]

Originally Posted by Kaitiaki

Thank you. Intriguingly, the button doesn't seem to appear when signed in as an owner who is also Commissioner. But now that I know where to look, it's there for everyone else.

Much obliged.

- Kai

I guess it assumes that if you're the Commish, you don't need to download your own data file updates.

[jbone]

Targy,

It is amusing that in the same post in which you wish all the bashers would go away, you wind up bashing something else, namely the entire sport of soccer (a sport for which the same people whom you are so ardently defending, are completely obsessed with). If you want to spend your spare time watching the Rays, I wish you enjoyment with that. Though please recognize that in my first post I never actually bashed the game itself, nor Marcus at all - my only complaint is the approach that SI takes to releasing its games. It is disliked internationally, and it obviously hasn't been very well recieved in many corners here. This is just the reality of it.

As a Rays fan, you might have a higher tolerance of imperfection than the rest of us (sorry, I couldn't help it), but I do feel that it would be nice if SI could release more full games in the future.

Thank you,
Jamie

[sovereignstar]

Originally Posted by targy

Here we go again. someone cuts the game down, someone defends the game, the person who cuts it down rebuttles and then we have the snipe snipe snipe, come on this gets so redundant. It just goes on and on and on and on. Are we all so bored that we have nothing better to do then go on with the endless complaining. Posts that go over problems with game are great, people giving new ideas is great. But if you all would check all the threads you will see that the ones that cut down SI or Markus or why did this game come out bugs and SI should never release this buggy games and here is to all of you that read all the posts and still bought the game with all the bugs that everyone complained about. Now I have to herar from someone who did the soccer game for five years and by the way were there ever any scores more than 1-0 and let me tell you I just can't get excited about 0-0 games. ooohhhhhh excitement. I know all of you soccer fans will rip me but I could not care less about soccer. Back to my original thought. Here is a guy who played an SI game for five years and really from what he said it was terrible then he goes and buys OOTP and what does he do he complains that it was released as a beta as if there have not been hundreds of posts about this subject. So now it time to snipe and snipe and snipe and again tell me about the evil SI and Markus does not care. I for one like the game and the patches have been great, sure there are alot of things that it is missing but you know I have so many software programs that I get patches for all the time and the big Windows how many patches have you got for XP. like more than once a week. So if you are going to do a bashing post listen to this..............you know what that is...........it is silence which is what people should do to the bashers...silence. God give you a wonderful power, it is the power of choice, I suggest you make that choice, put the game down and back away and when you can bashing come on back we will forgive you and we harbor no bad feeling to the bashers, without them where would we get or laughs from.

You all have a blessed evening

I can't remember the last time I had so much trouble reading a paragraph.

[targy]

First of all I was not bashing soccer, just wanted to understand why a 0-0 game was so exciting. And sorry if the last post was hard to read. Never said I was a writer so I am sorry for the run on sentances and not knowing when to start a new paragraph. I am done with this post anyway

[jbone]

Originally Posted by targy

Now I have to herar from someone who did the soccer game for five years and by the way were there ever any scores more than 1-0 and let me tell you I just can't get excited about 0-0 games. ooohhhhhh excitement. I know all of you soccer fans will rip me but I could not care less about soccer.

Thank you for not bashing soccer. That is highly appreciated.

Jamie

[silvam14]

Soccer??? Now there's that sport that's played in Ghana!

[Ambermonk]

Thanks to all of the Developers, testers, and users who made constructive comments. All of your efforts are appreciated.

[jbone]

Yeah, it's played it Ghana. It's played in Medford, too. I've been there.

Jamie

[PK53]

Originally Posted by Sweed

With your experience why don't you wait to buy each game after the final patch?

Because even after the final patch (1.0.2) the game is still buggier than it should have been back in May.

[Geebob]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar

I can't remember the last time I had so much trouble reading a paragraph.

Want to read some of my students' term papers???

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Sweed
With your experience why don't you wait to buy each game after the final patch

Originally Posted by PK53

Because even after the final patch (1.0.2) the game is still buggier than it should have been back in May.

Do you quote everyone out of context?

He was talking about FM, EHM, and in general any SI game from any year. Yet he continues to buy FM and EHM before the final patches and goes through the cycle he complains about.

To break it down a little more, once a person waits for the final patch they still are not forced to buy the game. They can then check out the boards and reviews to make a decision. I guess I thought this part of it was common sesne and didn't need to be explained. My fault.

[jbone]

You know, generally when a game comes out, people are excited to play it. The game has been advertised, and folks are excited to check it out and play it. Most people say to themselves "gee, that game sounds exciting, I think I'll buy it." There are very few people who are like "Gee, that game sounds great, I think I'll really enjoy it. I know! I'll wait months to buy it until they have released a final patch."

I have heard other people say this sort of comment as well, and it makes no sense to me. Either there is a fundamental lack of understanding about the process that a consumer goes about to buy a game. Either that, or you have a fundamental lack of understanding about human nature in general.

And anyways, you just don't seem to get it. As a consumer, if a game is released and advertised, one should assume that on whole, it is working correctly. It's not my job to purvey message boards for when final patches have come out; it's my job to read an email that the game has been released, and then pay $35 and play and enjoy the game.

If I need a hammer and walk into a hardware store to buy one, they aren't like "yes, we have a great hammer right here. However, the head of it and the handle aren't attached yet. We're selling this hammer for $35, though, and I hope that you can wait a couple of months for your project so that we can finish manufacturing the hammer."

Whether the final hammer is good or not (and it could wind up being the best hammer in the world), this is no way to do business.

And as far as whether I keep buying their games is my prerogative. It's my money, I can do what I want with it, when I want with it. And am I loyal? Yes. But that loyalty, plus the fact that I have spent the money for this game and have experienced this game, give me a right to speak up about this game, and the practices of SI in general. I don't tell you how to spend your money or your time, please don't tell me how to spend mine. It's none of your business.

The truth is, that I am the customer. When I receive an email advertising a game as a product, with new features, etc, and then go buy the game, I expect it to work properly. This isn't just a complaint, this is a right. If you have ever heard of the concept of "Consumer Rights", this is what they are talking about.

And quite frankly, those who attempt to defend SI on this (by apparently telling me to patient, or telling me to not buy the game, etc.) do so by attacking my buying habits and not defend the ethics of SI itself. These people are not going to improve the game for the future, so that SI stops this ridiculous practice. They are just helping SI perpetuate the cycle - as if SI is faultless for releasing a highly bugged game and it's simply MY fault for buying it and playing it.

Anyways, I'm sure that you consider yourselves very mature and patient and righteous for putting up with all the bugs of SI Games, and acting like I am some sort of lesser, impatient stooge. We'll see if you still feel the same way after ootp2008 is released with all sorts of bugs in it as well - or if by that time you are a little more sick of it - and you will have no one to blame but yourselves. Or perhaps you will just go on complaining about all the incessant posts by the "whiners" (i.e., those who actually expect quality and professionalism), and go on to congratulate yourselves for how mature you consider yourselves for waiting months after a release for a half-finished product to be fixed.

Let me give you hint - if you spoke up about it yourselves, instead of skirt the issue by attacking my buying and playing habits, SI might actually do something about it. And quite frankly, I think that is about the most constructive thing that has been said in this thread so far.

[Carplos]

Originally Posted by battists

dola,

I haven't actually tried that, but I *think* it should work. Let me know!

It'll work, I've done it with a few leagues. Teams will still go over the cap when they need to bring up reserves/minor leaguers.

Although that probably can't be helped.

[Solonor]

Originally Posted by jbone

There are very few people who are like "Gee, that game sounds great, I think I'll really enjoy it. I know! I'll wait months to buy it until they have released a final patch."

Actually, OOTP 2006 is the first game I have ever pre-ordered, much less bought without waiting for the patch! If there is a game that's been released in the last 20 years that didn't require a patch, then it's a rarity. The game companies have always rushed their stuff to market, and some of them are way worse disasters than this game (remember Red Baron II? or Outpost?).

That is not an excuse for SI. I have repeatedly stated that if they had done a public beta (even charging for the game but telling people it was beta), then a good chunk of the hostility we are seeing on the forum would not have arisen. There would have been a sense of participation, and the cries of "release it now!" would have been satisfied.

But they didn't. So, what? Instead, they work overtime fixing every complaint they can, and getting a group of forum members to help replicate the bugs and test the fixes. That's way more than a lot of companies would do, and I appreciate it.

HOWEVER, I think that you are correct that they need to hear the complaints about their game release practices (especially if it's a pattern... I don't know, I have never dealt with them before). If they are responsive to their customers, they will change their evil ways. If not, then we can stop buying their games... at least until after the first or second patch.

[Raidergoo]

I wonder about the ethics of someone who continues to buy a product from a company they find unethical.

[jbone]

Raidergoo,

My ethics are my concern. My question to you is: what do you think? Do you think that the way SI releases games is ethical or unethical? If you think that they are ethical, please explain why, so that I can know and learn a new way of looking at things and not feel this repeated sense of frustration surrounding their releases. You know that I respect your opinion.

Soloner,

A lot of what you say is legitimate. And I agree that at this time, with this game patched, in relation to this game, a lot of it is moot. But my speaking up is a way of trying to hopefully ensure for the future that this is not the case.

For FM now I believe that there are tons of volunteer testers who catch many problems ahead of time. Marc Duffy has admitted that the game was rushed to release on these boards. Calling it a beta-version would be much more honest advertising. It is one solution, though obviously not as ideal as having it be a solid game in the first place.

What I am trying to alert everyone to is that for SI Games, it is a pattern - if that is what you are wondering. At least that is what I can say from my four years of experience with SI.

[targy]

I'm back.....snipe, snipe, snipe, snipe, snipe. I leave for a little while and I thought I would just see if all the arguing had stopped. And just like the hundreds of other posts about the same things, it goes on and on and on. Lets see if i can make this paragraph harder to read. Oh wait I think soccer is on TV no it is just mold growing...LOL, You all just take everything so personally and I know I wil get ripped for my bad spelling and punctuation which has nothing to do with OOTP.

Oh look a new paragraph, really I do enjoy when everyone bashes everyone else, it makes for good reading of course unless someone does not know good puctuation.

I really think they should close this post because it is so redundant. All these things have been discussed before but then if people would search the posts they would see that

Look, another paragraph. As Rodney King once blurted out "Can't we all just get along". I am just waiting to see how many people bash me for this post.

Well it is off to watch Judge Judy or was that Jerry Springer or maybe just watch mold grow which is more interesting then this thread

I normally do not read these posts all time but being on vacation for a week and then of course back to (now I know this is a concept with some of you) my job.

Remember this. This post was all in fun and not meant to hurt ar make anyone mad, just a little humor to start your day and if you don't find this funny you must be one of those who has never heard of a game that needed patches.