Open Letter to the OOTP Developers

[Charlie Hough]

Originally Posted by 1998 Yankees

The game has gotten too complicated too fast.

1998 Yankees, I'm glad that you decided to join the forum, and thanks for the encouragement in the topic on tweaked settings for aging curves.

Your quote above points to something that I was thinking about last night, and I was thinking about starting a new topic about it. So I've gone ahead and created it as a new topic, and I suppose that it can serve as an open letter of sorts to both Marc Duffy and Markus Heinsohn.

I think the issue with OOTP is that the new version is trying to be all things for all users. And while that is a noble cause, it is impossible to achieve and it can lead to the problems that we're all finding in various aspects of the game.

Every major aspect of the game seems to have its own community of users and forum posters within the wider group of OOTP customers. And each community has its own set of complaints and suggestions. There are several topics on these forums that are devoted solely to briefly summarizing all of the issues, which number in the hundreds. Users see tremendous potential in OOTP, and many are pretty happy with what they have so far. But many are also frustrated and disappointed, and they are worried about which areas of the game are really going to receive attention and focus in the future.

After thinking about it and considering how OOTP2006 is an attempt to blend OOTP 6.5 with some of the features and ideas that have underlied other SI products like Football Manager, it seems like this game series is going to suffer major problems from trying to be too many things at once. I really believe that Marc and Markus need to sit down and decide what they want this game to be and how they will focus their future efforts.

The risk in trying to be all things to all people is that you will end up with a convoluted product. You will offer countless options and possibilities for configuration, but none of them will satisfy any particular community of users, whether they prefer the historical, fictional, online, global, career, replay, or other aspects of the game.

So, for example, you might offer some great options for historical play, but they might be too convoluted to satisfy the hardcore historical user base. We already see that problem now. Likewise, you might offer the prospect of 'global' baseball and foreign leagues, but you might not have enough features or options in these areas for users to create the kind of universes they really want

You might have added many features inspired by Football Manager, but they cannot possibly meet the expectations of those that have played FM for years. And users loyal to OOTP 6.5 have been dismayed by the loss of some of the features in that version, and they feel that they were sacrificed in the effort to take the game in a new direction. Or you might offer online league support, but gamers may feel cheated because they actually lost some of the important online features were included in OOTP 6.5.

The same can be said for any other group that comprises a subset of the OOTP user base. Everyone has complaints and suggestings. And I expect it to get worse if Markus tries to incorporate most of the ideas suggested on these forums. There is just too much to do and seemingly no way to do it all well enough to satisfy OOTP users.

So I want to reiterate my opinion that Marc and Markus need to sit down and narrow the scope of this game, so that future efforts can be more focused and will truly satisfy users with the features that remain. You might lose some gamers in the process, and that could even include me if the game focuses on areas outside my preferences.

But it's a risk worth taking, because OOTP might stand to gain many more sales and users if Marc and Markus can streamline and really improve the product. With a narrowed focus, development could be devoted to enhancing existing features and adding new ones responsibly, instead of trying to be all things to all people.

I appreciate and welcome all feedback, and I would be particularly interested to read any responses from Marc or Markus.

[Sweed]

Ok, solo play it is then j\k

Truthfully I don't think you'll see Markus change direction. These same arguments applied to ootp 6.5 and before just like they do now for 2006 and beyond. The base has been built and I believe Markus will continue on as he always has.

[Zeyes]

I have exactly the opposite take on the statement by 1998 Yankees that you quoted. I think the main problem hasn't been "too complicated", but rather "too fast". What this version dearly needed would have been another 6-12 months of development time. Alas, with the dual pressures of having to deliver revenue and an unruly userbase to deal with (I don't dare run a forum search on the phrase "Is it spring yet" for fear of crashing the board software), that wasn't possible.

As far as I can tell from reading pretty darn near every thread in Tech Support and cursory looks elsewhere, the number of issues raised about the game breaks down approximately into 10% features that have gone AWOL since OOTP6.5 (some of which were obviously chucked for good), 10% feature requests that would add completely new functionality, 20% feature requests that would extend something that's already been added to the game, and 60% just plain bugs.

Now, while that latter part has made for a rather bumpy ride since June 1st, the relatively small number of "completely new" feature requests is also a sign that the current codebase has already laid the foundation for much of what people want to see in future versions. And some things (like fully customizable league structures, or the whole adjustable development/aging algorithm) just can't be added in a piecemeal fashion, so while there are obvious growing pains, it was probably now-or-never for the OOTP franchise. Again, that's the main area where additional development time would have come in really handy, I suspect.

What OOTP might need for the next version are several different "wizard" modes geared towards each group of gamer (historical, fictional, online, modern "standard" MLB-style)...generally the problem isn't the amount of available options and settings, it's their presentation, especially for newer or less sophisticated players. Keep a "super" mode for those who want to be in full control of all customizable settings, but whittle it down for each group among those who "just want to get started". But (and I'm sounding like a broken record by now), those wizard modes would have to be put through the ringer to make sure their default values are sufficiently robust (because obviously there would still be some customizable options even in each wizard mode), which is where that whole "not enough time" problem from earlier this year comes in again.

Overall, I'm very optimistic for the 2007 version, though I've resigned myself to living with a few pesky bugs in the 2006 version for now. Still hoping for a 3rd patch though!

[KurtBevacqua]

All comes down to what I've said before. All this new stuff sounds great and should be great, but the game is simply not fun to play.

[james17]

I think a game has to grow if it is to remain interesting. While I'm not real big on the 'global' aspects of the game, there are many new features that I really do like and work well now after the latest patch.

I'd like to see the progress of the game continue. Markus can handle it.

[deadringer]

I must commend you on both what you're saying and how civilized you're saying it.

I agree with many of your observations. After really digging in to the guts of the game for the last few weeks and reading the forum daily for the last year I would say that OOTP 2006 is a jack of all trades, master of none.

Now that the final patch has been released (at least that's what it seems) and many of the bugs have been crushed the game seems to be complete, at least for this version.

I am enjoying the game and I do find a lot of both potential and merit in the game already but like many I have concerns for the future.

[Charlie Hough]

I am puzzled by some of the responses. I am not suggesting that the game should not progress or that Markus should stop adding new features. Obviously, we all want new features and we want the game to grow.

But the question is just how much should Markus try to do with each release? I agree with the previous posting that said the game probably needed another 6 to 12 months of development. This is a sign that it was too much to rewrite the game from the ground up, keep all the original features, and add all the new features -- while trying to meet an established deadline.

The same problem happened when SI released CM4. It was a complete rewrite of the game from the ground up, and a number of features were lost in the process, because they could not be included in time for the final release. The finished product was fairly poor and plagued with problems, and it is now considered to be the worst release of the Championship/Football Manager series to date.

Fortunately, SI regrouped from this and produced much better versions over the next couple of years. Hopefully the same will happen with OOTP. But my worry is that the effort to try and be all things to all people will slow down the process of restoring all the past features and solving the existing problems with the game.

That is why I think there should be a more narrow focus, at least for now. Once the game is back up to the standards set by 6.5, then I think it would be easier and more appropriate to try and expand the game significantly. Presumably the end results would be much stronger.

In the meantime, I think it makes sense to focus on getting the game back to its original standard of quality by restoring lost features and solving the existing problems with simulation results, the user interface, modifiers, and other features.

[enuttage]

Originally Posted by KurtBevacqua

All comes down to what I've said before. All this new stuff sounds great and should be great, but the game is simply not fun to play.

For me, this is it, too.

Now I'm trying my damndest to see about getting our online league to work properly, and trying to maintain my patience while clearing numerous hurdles in order to do so, all the while with a gnawing realization in the back of my mind that some of my best GMs may not come with me if we convert.

If I can get the online experience to live up to what 6.5 was, then I'm a-okay with waiting for the next version of events to unfold in re to solo play.

If I can't get it to work...then I'm afraid I'm gone for good. I game in small spurts, when I have time, for absolute escapism and pure enjoyment. So far, this thing isn't doing it for me. I end up pulling my hair out every night in frustration, and not really getting any answers here. There are still issues with so many things. File size, FTP functionality, ratings-only options not being available, draft pick compensation issues, and so on. And we've just started the process.

I will only persue this path for so long before I've knocked myself unconscious from beating my head against the wall. And that's no fun. No fun at all. It hurts actually.

I'm frustrated, so my tone is a little bit more negative than usual, so please keep that in mind when reading it. I still think very highly of what Markus has done in this version, and I think that the game will only get better as it moves along. It just may be dropping me off at this stop.

But CH, to your post, it is an insightful one and something that should probably be taken to heart by those most closely involved with the game. Nice work bud. You've kept your head and still shot it straight.

[DarkFudge]

the simple statement "that this game is just not fun to play" best sums up my opinions as well. While I deeply respect the statistical depth and options this game offers, it just doesnt feel like an enjoyable game.....more or less, its just a baseball stat replicating engine.

This may be fine for some, but I wanted a bit more gameplay rolled into it. What I truly think the game needs is a bit more gloss. The actual on-field games are dry. I think some animations and sounds effects could spruce up this area. Nothing overly gaudy, but rather similar to what Pure Sim 2007 does. It makes actually playing the games a bit more exciting and interesting.

Also, the Menus and interface have no real main centralization. There's data in too many different places. There should be a more central structure that the player should work from. The League Magazine, Your Home team magazine, other team's magazine, then stat reports, then theres even more stats in other places, ect ect. Bring it all together somehow more logically and user friendly.

Perhaps even have more interaction and dialouge between the actual player who is the manager and the AI GM to give you feedback, or critiscism, goals, ect. Make it a bit more virtual, alive and immersive without losing the great statstical sim depth.


I dunno, just my thoughts

[cephasjames]

I think it should come with free cheese molds.

[cephasjames]

Originally Posted by cephasjames

I think it should come with free cheese molds.

Dola,

Charlie, though I disagree with you on most of your post, thank you for handling this with class. Because you were calm and collected I actually read your whole post without cringing, unlike some who have recently voiced their opinions.

[CMH]

Well, it's almost a gift and a curse with OOTP and Markus.

The community is to blame really. But, at the same time it should be commended.

Not to take away from SI's community, but it seems to me that SI while making FM/CM took suggestions but still concentrated on what they felt was best for the game. Markus, on the other hand, seems perhaps a bit too concerned about pleasing the people that have been on board since the first version of his baseball game.

I'm all for making your core users happy, but it's obvious that this game has surpassed even the expectations of those said users.

It's about time Markus and the team at SI think about what they want for this game rather than what every individual person wants.

We all want a solid baseball game. We all want everything we see in a real baseball world (this includes full minor leagues, a waiver wire, trade rumors, full financial reports) and we all want to recreate our pasttime (this includes customization galore, importing/exporting rosters, settings, settings, settings).

I find it hard to believe that Markus doesn't want the same things. So, why don't we just let him make a baseball game?

[Faroo6]

Originally Posted by cephasjames

Dola,

Charlie, though I disagree with you on most of your post, thank you for handling this with class. Because you were calm and collected I actually read your whole post without cringing, unlike some who have recently voiced their opinions.

Are you allowed to qoute yourself in a "dola"? On to the topic. I would say this game is, using its own scouting format, a 45/80. A little more than halfway to greatness.

[Carplos]

Originally Posted by Faroo6

Are you allowed to qoute yourself in a "dola"? On to the topic. I would say this game is, using its own scouting format, a 45/80. A little more than halfway to greatness.

But 50 is halfway on the 20-80 scale.

[Faroo6]

Originally Posted by Carplos

But 50 is halfway on the 20-80 scale.

DOH!!

[APujols5]

My only complaint with this game is the fact that we were lied to about the fact that this is a finished game. All this release ends up being is a public beta for OOTP '07 that we all paid $35 to help test. I'm sorry to say this, but Markus really has let down a loyal fan base that has supported him for years. In every post from the supposed "fan boys" the one phrase that is repeated over and over is that "this is the base for all the future releases" or "wait for '07" but I am sorry that is just pathetic. If this is how the OOTP consumer is going to be treated in the future, the consumer base will get smaller and smaller with each release. So I would suggest that Markus should really push Marc to do something to make things right to the loyal customer base. and in a final rant, instead of banning people that don't fall in line with the fan boys, maybe you should be listening to your critics and using any and all resources to make this the game it can and should be...

[Carplos]

Am I the only one that finds humor in someone who isn't "falling in line" complaining about such people being banned?

JimG and Ozzie were hardly undeserving of their bans.

[bababui]

Originally Posted by Carplos

Am I the only one that finds humor in someone who isn't "falling in line" complaining about such people being banned?

JimG and Ozzie were hardly undeserving of their bans.

Ultimatly they were right. Markus listened to the hard core wing of his fanbase and made a game that is more tedious than fun. OOTP2006 isnt half the fun of 6.51, sadly. Markus, many of us arent simmers. If that is the direction the game is going please say so and we who play out all games will leave.

[ihatenames]

Originally Posted by bababui

Ultimatly they were right. Markus listened to the hard core wing of his fanbase and made a game that is more tedious than fun. OOTP2006 isnt half the fun of 6.51, sadly. Markus, many of us arent simmers. If that is the direction the game is going please say so and we who play out all games will leave.

Well thats just it. If you're not having fun with the game find a game you will enjoy. I have loyality to ootp to a point. However, i have more loyality to my wallet and myself. I'll play ootp until i find something better. If you like another game better, play that instead, don't buy ootp.

I happen to love ootp. At first i was disappointed but i really enjoy it now. I having many different leagues, as well independent leagues. I guess i'm a simmer. I play the first game of every week and sim the rest. On top of that i watch one game of all my minor league clubs a month for scouting purposes. There are things i liked about 6.5 better than i do with 2006. But i haven't played 6.5 for months. Thats just my opinion.

Like i said, if you don't like it, find a game you do like. What got guys like ozzie banned was being combative and standoffish. It wasn't his message that got him banned but the presentation. You can't bully markus and company to add what you want. There are more effective ways to compaign for features you want.

[APujols5]

You guys do know the only reason he was banned was for saying a semi curse word 2 times?