Just the facts, Ma'am...

[bababui]

I'm kind of shocked that after all of the complaining we've heard about this, that no one has created a "vanilla" PbP file. One of the great aspects of this year's product is that anyone with a text editor can change the text. Tired of hearing DaED's name in the PbP? It just takes three steps that even the most technophobic gamer can accomplish:

Maybe I am missing something, but when you pay $30+ for a text sim, its reasonable to expect the text to be of professional quality. While its great that the text is editable, its too complicated for many users. Until there is some kind of a graphical engine, all we have to represent how the game unfolds is the text. It might be a good idea if Markus hired a professional to write the PbP.

[1998 Yankees]

Originally Posted by bababui

Maybe I am missing something, but when you pay $30+ for a text sim, its reasonable to expect the text to be of professional quality. While its great that the text is editable, its too complicated for many users. Until there is some kind of a graphical engine, all we have to represent how the game unfolds is the text. It might be a good idea if Markus hired a professional to write the PbP.

This was kinda my reaction to your post, battists. I've already done a ton of work, enjoyable for the most part, on this game and I have appreciated the opportunity for the most part. But to invite me to rewrite PbP, which to anyone who has looked into the XML file would appear to be a tremendous job, is a bit much.

[akw4572]

Originally Posted by battists

Without disagreeing that there is room for improvement, I'm kind of shocked that after all of the complaining we've heard about this, that no one has created a "vanilla" PbP file. One of the great aspects of this year's product is that anyone with a text editor can change the text. Tired of hearing DaED's name in the PbP? It just takes three steps that even the most technophobic gamer can accomplish:

1. Open up English.xml with Notepad.
2. Search for Dale and Eli's Dad and replace it with something else.
3. Save the file.

You could have done that in the time it took you to post in this thread. Creating a wholly vanilla file would take a little more effort, but as BigCity pointed out, after 6.5, the whole board was filled with people begging for more colorful play-by-play.

I'm not trying be all "It's fine the way it is" about it. I agree that there's still room for improvement, particularly regarding some of the strange combinations of plays. But, at least there's the possibility of taking things into your own hands here, and if there are enough people around who want a more plain version, put your heads together and create one!

Steve

I'm kinda getting sick of relying on mods to be honest with you.

[DaddyO]

Mods are a great capability. But if they are treated as a substitute in lieu of solid out-of-the-box features, that's relying on them too heavily. The genius of the community is a marvelous resource. But it should be a secondary resource for those who want to adapt and add to what is already a finished product.

Again, I think most of us understand that with the complete rewrite the PbP could not receive the attention it deserves when considered in isolation. Again, as with so many other features, we now look to 2007 as the chance to give this the attention it needs.

But it's hard to argue with the notion mentioned above that if you're selling a text sim, the text presentation ought to be among the highest priorities. In fact, if you think about it, OOTP2006 is more an organizational and stats sim than a text sim.

[Cork55]

Perhaps if we had some basic info about how the test snippets are strung together, we could begin to weed out the bad parts. I'll gladly work on some sort of mod that removes the needless confusion from the PbP.

Markus, perhaps you could enlighten us a tiny bit here.

-Cork55

[battists]

Well, as I stated, my post wasn't intended to indicate that I thought that the text is flawless as is, and so "you should just edit it if you don't like it." Obviously, Markus and everyone else concerned wants to keep improving the text.

My point was more that, if you see a specific line that aggravates you (the DaED line was mentioned), it's quite easy to replace that in the file.

QuestDog, you can eliminate as many objects as you wish, but it's a good idea to leave one in each category so the game doesn't throw any errors when that category gets called.

Several people have mentioned DMB. Is it everyone's opinion that DMB is pretty much the best out there at PBP?

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by battists

Well, as I stated, my post wasn't intended to indicate that I thought that the text is flawless as is, and so "you should just edit it if you don't like it." Obviously, Markus and everyone else concerned wants to keep improving the text.

My point was more that, if you see a specific line that aggravates you (the DaED line was mentioned), it's quite easy to replace that in the file.

QuestDog, you can eliminate as many objects as you wish, but it's a good idea to leave one in each category so the game doesn't throw any errors when that category gets called.

Several people have mentioned DMB. Is it everyone's opinion that DMB is pretty much the best out there at PBP?

Thanks. How 'bout adding objects?

[Raidergoo]

Originally Posted by Questdog

Thanks. How 'bout adding objects?

That requires new programming.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by bababui

Maybe I am missing something, but when you pay $30+ for a text sim, its reasonable to expect the text to be of professional quality... It might be a good idea if Markus hired a professional to write the PbP.

But such a professional costs money, and it would be reasonable to assume that would bump up the game's retail cost so that it's no longer a $30 game. For every action there's an equal and opposite reaction... or something like that.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by battists

Well, as I stated, my post wasn't intended to indicate that I thought that the text is flawless as is, and so "you should just edit it if you don't like it." Obviously, Markus and everyone else concerned wants to keep improving the text.

My point was more that, if you see a specific line that aggravates you (the DaED line was mentioned), it's quite easy to replace that in the file.

QuestDog, you can eliminate as many objects as you wish, but it's a good idea to leave one in each category so the game doesn't throw any errors when that category gets called.

Several people have mentioned DMB. Is it everyone's opinion that DMB is pretty much the best out there at PBP?

I mentioned your line too! Why do you have to ignore your line!? Racist.

Seriously though, I'm not bashing the game here; I'd just like a smidge better editing on next year's PBP. I know that if I wanted to take the time to do so, I could edit all the "he moves around all over the outfield and SOMEHOW MAKES THE CATCH" plays that show up in the "tough play" section too... but I really don't have time to do that. Ideally, I'd rather you guys just had it fixed. I'm not asking for perfection. I'm just asking for relative lack of corniness.

One last thing: I'd be willing to pay 49.99 for this if it meant y'all could hire another fube to take care of the interface and language stuff. That's not really how economics work, I know, but I'm just sayin'.

[battists]

Originally Posted by Questdog

Thanks. How 'bout adding objects?

Just to clarify a technicality about Raidergoo's point, adding objects (individual snippets of text) is fine; there is no limit on that. You could add 50 new objects to one category for variety, or delete them down to just one per category.

However, you cannot add new categories on your own. (For example, a category for a text message when your fictional award for "Best Left-Handed Third Baseman" given.)

[battists]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Seriously though, I'm not bashing the game here; I'd just like a smidge better editing on next year's PBP. I know that if I wanted to take the time to do so, I could edit all the "he moves around all over the outfield and SOMEHOW MAKES THE CATCH" plays that show up in the "tough play" section too... but I really don't have time to do that. Ideally, I'd rather you guys just had it fixed. I'm not asking for perfection. I'm just asking for relative lack of corniness.

Syd, the difficulty lies mainly in everyone having different opinions. For cases where inappropriate things happen in the game, like a grounder to third being caught by the second basemen, those are problems that we have to fix.

But, in terms of the language itself, how it describes a person swinging and missing for example, everyone has different opinions on those. Some people like the corny stuff, other people don't. We fought about it most of the year on the text team, with some people being really conservative, and others liking a little more floral language. So, saying "I'd rather you had it fixed" is a nice idea, but it's not really so simple. I know that for 2007 I'm going to make a valiant effort to push the text more towards "vanilla," because of this sort of feedback. OTOH, this might well bring out the calls for more variety in the play-by-play.

Anyway, I think if nothing else in my time here, I've developed some kind of a reputation to being open to feedback, and I can tell you that I've definitely heard this feedback, and will try to focus hard on improving the PbP text, insofar as I'm asked to be involved for 2007.

Thanks!

Steve

[highandoutside]

Originally Posted by nyysfan

Totally agree with OP.

I don't know or care how it's generated, but Diamond Mind's PbP is pretty near perfect. Right amount of great plays. Same starting text can end up a couple different ways depending on weather or fielders etc.

I like OOTP for the career aspect which DMB doesn't have at all. And lots of other things make it a nice game. But I can't stomach playing out games batter by batter because the PbP text is so atrocious.

Also I strongly dislike having to hit a button once to sim a plate appearance, then again to clear the PbP area, then again to sim the next plate appearance, then again to clear the PbP area etc. Should be able to hit a button only once per batter. Actually DMB does a nice job here too. They have a tab on the PbP text area to Replay the text of the last play. So you hit a button to sim a plate appearance and the PbP text area clears and you hit a button to sim the next PA etc. If you want to see the PbP text of the last play you simply click the Replay tab...

Again, there's lots of reasons I like OOTP over DMB - but DMB happens to do these 2 things very well and OOTP does them very poorly.

I couldn't agree more.

[bababui]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

But such a professional costs money, and it would be reasonable to assume that would bump up the game's retail cost so that it's no longer a $30 game. For every action there's an equal and opposite reaction... or something like that.

And the problem with that would be what? The text in a text sim is one of the most important game features. And how much could it possibly cost? Im sure most wouldnt mind paying $32 if it meant a great text file.

[battists]

Originally Posted by bababui

And the problem with that would be what? The text in a text sim is one of the most important game features. And how much could it possibly cost? Im sure most wouldnt mind paying $32 if it meant a great text file.

I think the bigger question about "hiring a professional" would be this:

A professional what? Writer? Play-by-play announcer? Editor? There were people on the text team whose real-world jobs matched each of those descriptions. I don't think the problem is as simple as "just pay someone to do it."

[bababui]

Originally Posted by battists

I think the bigger question about "hiring a professional" would be this:

A professional what? Writer? Play-by-play announcer? Editor? There were people on the text team whose real-world jobs matched each of those descriptions. I don't think the problem is as simple as "just pay someone to do it."

Writing is one of those things that looks easy and anyone thinks they can do it. Up to a point they can..but not well. Thats why it would be a good idea to hire someone who is very good at it. Writing PbP is a creative endeaver. It takes some unique talent to do this well. Find one person and leave it to he or she.

[Charley575]

I don't think that a "professional" is needed. I also think that there can be a place in the middle where the people who want more "color" get what they want, and the people who want "just the facts ma'am" get what they want. Speaking solely for myself, I would like the the stuff that says nothing taken out. The advertisements for non-existent products mainly, because it doesn't move the story forward. Like I said in my previous post, just tighten it up. That's all. Save the story for when there is something to tell. I don't want to read a whole novel for each pitch. A few fewer lines of text so that a game can be played out in a reasonable amount of time. Again, speaking only for myself, I find myself playing less often because between a full time job and a 1 year old baby, I don't often have a full hour to devote to sitting in front of the computer to play out a game. I CERTAINLY don't have the time or patience to wade through the text file and edit it myself. Beyond that, the PbP calls should make sense. Stop trying to make the outcome suspenseful because you can't. Nor should you. When I listen to baseball on the radio, if the announcer thinks the ball has a chance to get out, he doesn't hide it and try to trick me into thinking it's a routine fly ball, for example. That is my request to whoever partakes of the text file write/rewrite for the next version.

[bababui]

Originally Posted by Charley575

I don't think that a "professional" is needed. I also think that there can be a place in the middle where the people who want more "color" get what they want, and the people who want "just the facts ma'am" get what they want. Speaking solely for myself, I would like the the stuff that says nothing taken out. The advertisements for non-existent products mainly, because it doesn't move the story forward. Like I said in my previous post, just tighten it up. That's all. Save the story for when there is something to tell. I don't want to read a whole novel for each pitch. A few fewer lines of text so that a game can be played out in a reasonable amount of time. Again, speaking only for myself, I find myself playing less often because between a full time job and a 1 year old baby, I don't often have a full hour to devote to sitting in front of the computer to play out a game. I CERTAINLY don't have the time or patience to wade through the text file and edit it myself. Beyond that, the PbP calls should make sense. Stop trying to make the outcome suspenseful because you can't. Nor should you. When I listen to baseball on the radio, if the announcer thinks the ball has a chance to get out, he doesn't hide it and try to trick me into thinking it's a routine fly ball, for example. That is my request to whoever partakes of the text file write/rewrite for the next version.

I can live with this.

[DreamTeams]

Originally Posted by Charley575

I don't think that a "professional" is needed. I also think that there can be a place in the middle where the people who want more "color" get what they want, and the people who want "just the facts ma'am" get what they want. Speaking solely for myself, I would like the the stuff that says nothing taken out. The advertisements for non-existent products mainly, because it doesn't move the story forward. Like I said in my previous post, just tighten it up. That's all. Save the story for when there is something to tell. I don't want to read a whole novel for each pitch. A few fewer lines of text so that a game can be played out in a reasonable amount of time. Again, speaking only for myself, I find myself playing less often because between a full time job and a 1 year old baby, I don't often have a full hour to devote to sitting in front of the computer to play out a game. I CERTAINLY don't have the time or patience to wade through the text file and edit it myself. Beyond that, the PbP calls should make sense. Stop trying to make the outcome suspenseful because you can't. Nor should you. When I listen to baseball on the radio, if the announcer thinks the ball has a chance to get out, he doesn't hide it and try to trick me into thinking it's a routine fly ball, for example. That is my request to whoever partakes of the text file write/rewrite for the next version.

Agreed. Also, make sure that the lines makes since or flow logically and you've got it.

[highandoutside]

On top of all that has been mentioned (less suspense, less “great” plays and cutting out the nonsense station identifications) I think what should be added are more references to in-game or season performances of the players. We now have a plethora of statistic to draw from. How about the including more commentary like “Simms is 4-9 in the series” or “Simms is batting .333 with a 1-2 count”. More, quick one- liners that add a statistical context to the at bat or situation would be great. Just don’t over do it with a bunch of fluff. I like to play pitch by pitch and I am a patient person, but wading through some of the text is starting to get to me. Again, learn from DMB.