CAMPAIGN for League Associations

cephasjames · 03-01-2007, 08:14 AM

With the addition of add/delete league/subleague we're quite a leap closer to being able to accurately portray how leagues have existed. But one of my major issues still is how in order to have two 'leagues' (AL & NL) interact with each other they need to 'subleagues' within a 'league.'

But this is not how history has worked. For instance, until 2000 the AL and NL were actually two seperate leagues that just happen to associate themselves with each other. When the Federal League came into existence either the NL or the AL could have disassociated themsleves with the other to associate themsleves with the Federal League. Though this will be possible in 2007 with a bit of work (creating a second subleague for the Fedral League and moving the American League teams to into it, thus leaving the National League all alone) it doesn't really correctly save the American League's history and it just seems like a bit of a pain.

League Associations will allow each and every league to remain as its own entity but still allow it to interact with another league during the regular and post seasons. The AL could switch its association the FL for two years and then move back to being affiliated with the NL with ease.

This could also clear up the craziness of "what do you call a 'league' that has two subleagues that through history were actually 'leagues'?" In the game the association of the AL & NL is called Major League Baseball. Well, the Federal League is also Major. What about the IL & AA. They were associated until the AA folded. What do we call that association when they are associated? The Minor League Association? AAA Association? AAA League? Where does that leave the PCL? And when the AA folded do we then call that 'league' that used to be known as the AAA Association (or whatever) simply just the IL? It's crazy!

I don't know if I explained this very well (and I'm sure others can and will jump in and clarify my mess - as is always the case) but I think having League Associations (horizontal affiliations maybe?) would make running historical and fictional worlds so much better and easier.

Markus Heinsohn · 03-01-2007, 08:21 AM

2009... maybe 2010

cephasjames · 03-01-2007, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

2009... maybe 2010

Doh!

cephasjames · 03-01-2007, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cephasjames

Doh!

At least its something.

ctorg · 03-01-2007, 08:25 AM

I am a little uncomfortable with the current setup of "sub-leagues" as well. One thing that continues to frustrate me about the game is the limitation inherent in having the two-subleague setup. The Federal League was a real and important part of baseball history. Sure, it was only around for two years, but it had some big-name players in it and made a real impact on the game.

I really think OOTP needs to be compatible with more than just the AL and NL. It needs to be able to import whatever leagues exist in any year in a database. I know this won't happen in 2007, but I would like to see the game develop more options in the future.

One of my favorite "alternate history" scenarios is to have the FL stick around and become part of the mix, with either the AL or NL dropping away or combining the two of them combining. This is hard to set up.

silvam14 · 03-01-2007, 09:00 AM

Cephas can be my capaign manager anytime....(cue top gun theme music)

cephasjames · 03-01-2007, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by silvam14

Cephas can be my capaign manager anytime....(cue top gun theme music)

cephasjames · 03-01-2007, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctorg

I am a little uncomfortable with the current setup of "sub-leagues" as well. One thing that continues to frustrate me about the game is the limitation inherent in having the two-subleague setup. The Federal League was a real and important part of baseball history. Sure, it was only around for two years, but it had some big-name players in it and made a real impact on the game.

I really think OOTP needs to be compatible with more than just the AL and NL. It needs to be able to import whatever leagues exist in any year in a database. I know this won't happen in 2007, but I would like to see the game develop more options in the future.

One of my favorite "alternate history" scenarios is to have the FL stick around and become part of the mix, with either the AL or NL dropping away or combining the two of them combining. This is hard to set up.

Maybe having associations will lead to that kooky 'world cup' idea being implimented too. If we can associate tow leagues together, why not eight?

silvam14 · 03-01-2007, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cephasjames

Maybe having associations will lead to that kooky 'world cup' idea being implimented too. If we can associate tow leagues together, why not eight?

Unfortunately, the way it sounds, we may have to wait the amount of time between actual world cups before this gets in.....

disposableheros · 03-01-2007, 02:09 PM

bump for Cooley

skywalkr2 · 03-01-2007, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

2009... maybe 2010

Hey we now have a written contract that states SI won't stop producing the game... woohoo!!

Le Grande Orange · 03-01-2007, 05:22 PM

Guys, I've been on about this already in the beta forums for awhile now. Not in full campaign mode as yet, but more as gentle nudges that perhaps the current path is not the optimal one for recreating certain aspects of baseball history (most notably the major-minor relationship, but also including the MLB major league to major league relationship).

The main question about this sort of suggestion is whether there is something about the way the game is currently designed to handle leagues which prevents it or not. Markus hasn't said that's the case, so I'm presuming associating leagues is at least doable under the current design (though perhaps it may require a lot of work).

At some point I'll pull together a more detailed proposal, backed up by evidence as to why it's an important item to put into the game.

Offhand, as of right now, I can think of three levels of association that would be needed:

Major League Association. This would take two or more major leagues and put them under one umbrella organization, just like how the AL and NL were under the larger MLB grouping. By putting major leagues under the same association, it would allow the following to happen: 1) a post-season championship series between the champions of each individual league; 2)trading and selling players between the leagues; 3) a combined amateur draft; 4) interleague regular season games between the leagues; 5) interleague spring training games between the leagues.

Minor League Association. This would be similar to the Major League Association, but for minor leagues.

Major-Minor League Association. This would mimic the structure which governs the real-world relationship between the major and minor leagues. Putting a group of major and minor leagues together in this association would allow: 1) major league clubs to have working agreements with minor league clubs for player development; 2) major league clubs to outright own minor league clubs; 3) allow a Rule 5 type draft whereby the major league clubs can draft players from minor league clubs, and minor league clubs could draft players from other, lower classification minor league clubs; 4) allow players to be optioned to minor league clubs.

cephasjames · 03-01-2007, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Guys, I've been on about this already in the beta forums for awhile now. Not in full campaign mode as yet, but more as gentle nudges that perhaps the current path is not the optimal one for recreating certain aspects of baseball history (most notably the major-minor relationship, but also including the MLB major league to major league relationship).

The main question about this sort of suggestion is whether there is something about the way the game is currently designed to handle leagues which prevents it or not. Markus hasn't said that's the case, so I'm presuming associating leagues is at least doable under the current design (though perhaps it may require a lot of work).

At some point I'll pull together a more detailed proposal, backed up by evidence as to why it's an important item to put into the game.

Offhand, as of right now, I can think of three levels of association that would be needed:

Major League Association. This would take two or more major leagues and put them under one umbrella organization, just like how the AL and NL were under the larger MLB grouping. By putting major leagues under the same association, it would allow the following to happen: 1) a post-season championship series between the champions of each individual league; 2)trading and selling players between the leagues; 3) a combined amateur draft; 4) interleague regular season games between the leagues; 5) interleague spring training games between the leagues.

Minor League Association. This would be similar to the Major League Association, but for minor leagues.

Major-Minor League Association. This would mimic the structure which governs the real-world relationship between the major and minor leagues. Putting a group of major and minor leagues together in this association would allow: 1) major league clubs to have working agreements with minor league clubs for player development; 2) major league clubs to outright own minor league clubs; 3) allow a Rule 5 type draft whereby the major league clubs can draft players from minor league clubs, and minor league clubs could draft players from other, lower classification minor league clubs; 4) allow players to be optioned to minor league clubs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cephasjames

I'm sure others can and will jump in and clarify my mess

It's nice having LGO around.

The Wolf · 03-01-2007, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

2009... maybe 2010

Better late than never!

cephasjames · 01-21-2012, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

2009... maybe 2010

2012... not too bad.

Le Grande Orange · 01-22-2012, 03:25 AM

Wow, I posted that stuff five years ago? Crazy! It doesn't feel like anywhere near that long ago.

Cryomaniac · 03-05-2012, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Wow, I posted that stuff five years ago? Crazy! It doesn't feel like anywhere near that long ago.

This thread is from just before I joined

.

03-01-2007, 08:14 AM	#1 (permalink)
cephasjames Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 4,218 Thanks: 1,495 Thanked 1,318x in 521 posts	CAMPAIGN for League Associations With the addition of add/delete league/subleague we're quite a leap closer to being able to accurately portray how leagues have existed. But one of my major issues still is how in order to have two 'leagues' (AL & NL) interact with each other they need to 'subleagues' within a 'league.' But this is not how history has worked. For instance, until 2000 the AL and NL were actually two seperate leagues that just happen to associate themselves with each other. When the Federal League came into existence either the NL or the AL could have disassociated themsleves with the other to associate themsleves with the Federal League. Though this will be possible in 2007 with a bit of work (creating a second subleague for the Fedral League and moving the American League teams to into it, thus leaving the National League all alone) it doesn't really correctly save the American League's history and it just seems like a bit of a pain. League Associations will allow each and every league to remain as its own entity but still allow it to interact with another league during the regular and post seasons. The AL could switch its association the FL for two years and then move back to being affiliated with the NL with ease. This could also clear up the craziness of "what do you call a 'league' that has two subleagues that through history were actually 'leagues'?" In the game the association of the AL & NL is called Major League Baseball. Well, the Federal League is also Major. What about the IL & AA. They were associated until the AA folded. What do we call that association when they are associated? The Minor League Association? AAA Association? AAA League? Where does that leave the PCL? And when the AA folded do we then call that 'league' that used to be known as the AAA Association (or whatever) simply just the IL? It's crazy! I don't know if I explained this very well (and I'm sure others can and will jump in and clarify my mess - as is always the case) but I think having League Associations (horizontal affiliations maybe?) would make running historical and fictional worlds so much better and easier. __________________

03-01-2007, 08:25 AM	#5 (permalink)
ctorg Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 9,701 Thanks: 38 Thanked 91x in 51 posts	I am a little uncomfortable with the current setup of "sub-leagues" as well. One thing that continues to frustrate me about the game is the limitation inherent in having the two-subleague setup. The Federal League was a real and important part of baseball history. Sure, it was only around for two years, but it had some big-name players in it and made a real impact on the game. I really think OOTP needs to be compatible with more than just the AL and NL. It needs to be able to import whatever leagues exist in any year in a database. I know this won't happen in 2007, but I would like to see the game develop more options in the future. One of my favorite "alternate history" scenarios is to have the FL stick around and become part of the mix, with either the AL or NL dropping away or combining the two of them combining. This is hard to set up. __________________ THE VERY US ARTISTS - A project for musicians and visual artists My music Currently reading: Thirteen by Richard Morgan "When the trees blow back and forth, that's what makes the wind." - Steven Wright Fjord emena pancreas thorax fornicate marmalade morpheme proteolysis smaxa cabana offal srue vitriol grope hallelujah lentils

03-01-2007, 09:00 AM	#6 (permalink)
silvam14 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Medford, MA Posts: 4,219 Thanks: 286 Thanked 1,693x in 530 posts	Cephas can be my capaign manager anytime....(cue top gun theme music) __________________ Senior "Nancy Boy" of the OOTP Boards _______________________________________________ Check out my Fictional Uniform Project! http://s76.photobucket.com/albums/j1...007%20Jerseys/

03-01-2007, 02:09 PM	#10 (permalink)
disposableheros Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 4,332 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0x in 0 posts	bump for Cooley __________________ 2 Wild Cards, 11 Division Champs, 4 League Champs, 3 World Champs, and 3 Best GM awards Baseball Maelstrom - New York Mets - 180-149 .547 Corporate League Baseball - Coke Buzz - 889-649 .578 Western Hemisphere Baseball League - Santiago Saints - 672-793 .459 Record - 2428-2271 .517

03-01-2007, 05:22 PM	#12 (permalink)
Le Grande Orange Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Scheduleslovakia Posts: 10,231 Thanks: 4 Thanked 1,177x in 700 posts	Guys, I've been on about this already in the beta forums for awhile now. Not in full campaign mode as yet, but more as gentle nudges that perhaps the current path is not the optimal one for recreating certain aspects of baseball history (most notably the major-minor relationship, but also including the MLB major league to major league relationship). The main question about this sort of suggestion is whether there is something about the way the game is currently designed to handle leagues which prevents it or not. Markus hasn't said that's the case, so I'm presuming associating leagues is at least doable under the current design (though perhaps it may require a lot of work). At some point I'll pull together a more detailed proposal, backed up by evidence as to why it's an important item to put into the game. Offhand, as of right now, I can think of three levels of association that would be needed: Major League Association. This would take two or more major leagues and put them under one umbrella organization, just like how the AL and NL were under the larger MLB grouping. By putting major leagues under the same association, it would allow the following to happen: 1) a post-season championship series between the champions of each individual league; 2)trading and selling players between the leagues; 3) a combined amateur draft; 4) interleague regular season games between the leagues; 5) interleague spring training games between the leagues. Minor League Association. This would be similar to the Major League Association, but for minor leagues. Major-Minor League Association. This would mimic the structure which governs the real-world relationship between the major and minor leagues. Putting a group of major and minor leagues together in this association would allow: 1) major league clubs to have working agreements with minor league clubs for player development; 2) major league clubs to outright own minor league clubs; 3) allow a Rule 5 type draft whereby the major league clubs can draft players from minor league clubs, and minor league clubs could draft players from other, lower classification minor league clubs; 4) allow players to be optioned to minor league clubs. __________________ . "We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our abilities and skills, because that challenge is one we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win." .

03-01-2007, 08:21 AM	#2 (permalink)
Markus Heinsohn Developer OOTP Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Germany Posts: 14,003 Thanks: 606 Thanked 7,113x in 1,336 posts	2009... maybe 2010

01-22-2012, 03:25 AM	#16 (permalink)
Le Grande Orange Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Scheduleslovakia Posts: 10,231 Thanks: 4 Thanked 1,177x in 700 posts	Wow, I posted that stuff five years ago? Crazy! It doesn't feel like anywhere near that long ago. __________________ . "We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our abilities and skills, because that challenge is one we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win." .

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