Catcher Throwing Arms: Ratings/Opinions Needed

GForce22 · 10-01-2002, 06:00 PM

hey guys,

OK, this is the toughest thing to rate, because SB/CS data isn't readily available for older players. So I need you guys for opinions.

Catchers you can think of who may make their franchise all-time team...give me an idea of their arm rating. Even if it's not a particular letter grade, give me "good", "bad", "average", etc. I have nothing to go on here and, while I can do recent guys on my own, older guys are more difficult (of course, I would still like opinions on recent guys as well).

Any help you can provide is appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

GH

LivnLegend · 10-01-2002, 07:32 PM

I'll continue to give feedback on the Dodgers as best I can…

Roy Campanella: From what I have read, Campy's defense was as feared as his hitting. Although he only led the league in assists once it was apparently largely because less runners would take chances on him, very similar to Bench. Despite being confined to a wheelchair, Campanella was instrumental in helping coach young Dodgers catchers like Yeager and Ferguson in spring training. I don't have it in front of me but I am sure I read that Bill James gave very high praise to Campanella's defense.

Mike Scioscia: The problem with Mike is he was a great defensive catcher with an average arm. Scioscia's plate blocking skills and ability to get balls in the dirt are very well documented -- he was the best of his era in those regards. Mike was also known well for his ability to handle a pitching staff and call a game. The fact is though, his throwing arm was average at best.

John Roseboro handled Drysdale and Koufax expertly and won two Gold Gloves. Arm was average to above average. His range factor was over a full point above his league's average and I think James has him listed in the top 30 catchers all-time.

GForce22 · 10-01-2002, 11:09 PM

thanks LL...is this info all in the Win Shares book? If so, I may need to accelerate my purchase, because this catcher defense is the hardest thing for me to rate for the all-time project.

GH

Raven · 10-02-2002, 01:16 AM

It's not in James' "Win Shares" book, it's in his "New Historical Baseball Abstract".

Eugene Church · 10-10-2002, 09:47 PM

In Total Baseball there is a "FR" rating for players. This is the "number of runs saved". I did some quick research and found Jim Hegan had the highest rating...Yogi Berra scored well, too...Rick Dempsey, Roy Campanella, Mickey Cochrane, Mike Scioscia, Gary Carter and Wes Westrum were also rated well...Andy Echebarren, Carlton Fisk. Elston Howard, Andy Seminick, and Johnny Roseboro were above average...and suprisingly, Johnny Bench and Bill Dickey were only average.

It will take a little work, but if you think this will help, send me a list of catchers and I'll get their ratings. Include Negro League players' names and I'll research them, too.

A great source for Negro League greats is "The Biographical Encyclopedia of Negro League Players" by James Riley.

Hope this helps.

GForce22 · 10-11-2002, 12:05 AM

Eugene,

Thanks a lot. This would be a HUGE help. The rosters for 12 teams are at www.geocities.com/ghenglein/league.htm
If you don't want to get them from there I will try to type up a list for you in the next few days.

Thanks again!

GH

Eugene Church · 10-11-2002, 02:25 PM

I got the list of catchers from the website you gave me.

I will send the ratings info for catchers within the next 2-3 days.

GForce22 · 10-11-2002, 03:12 PM

Thank you VERY much Eugene. It's much appreciated.

GH

MrAlphabet · 10-11-2002, 05:59 PM

Where's the Padres?

GForce22 · 10-11-2002, 06:42 PM

Padres will be done soon. Next to be entered are Mariners, Mets, Orioles and Padres.

GH

MrAlphabet · 10-11-2002, 07:16 PM

If you need help with the Padres I've been a fan of theirs since the early 80's

Eugene Church · 10-12-2002, 04:38 PM

This is the best info I could find...not as good as I would like...but it seems to be pretty accurate...I used TOTAL BASEBALL and the LAHMAN DATABASE.

NAME FA RANGE ARM PB's

Buck Rodgers .988 A A 5
Gabby Hartnett .989* B A 5
Johnny Kling .990* A A 5
Sandy Alomar .977 B C 8
Steve O'Neill .987* A A 6
Dave Nilsson .987 D D 16
Ellie Rodriguez .989 B D 7
Mickey Cochrane .990* A A 3
Terry Steinbach .987 D C 12
Pat Borders .988 B C 9
Ernie Whitt .991 D C 11
Javy Lopez .994 C C 7
Joe Torre .990 D C 12
Alan Ashby .986 A C 5
Johnny Edwards .992 B A 3
Roy Campanella .988 C A 7
Mike Piazza .988 C C 10
Gary Carter .991 A A 4
Darren Fletlcher .993 D D 10
Roger Bresnahan .986* A B 5
Wes Westrum .985 C A 9
Walker Cooper .982* C C 12
Tim McCarver .990 D C 11

Here are some others that you may need in the future:
NAME FA RANGE ARM PB'S
Brad Ausmus .992 B A 5
Yogi Berra .989 C A 8
Johnny Bench .990 C A 8
Jim Hegan .990 C A 8
Ivan Rodriguez .987 A A 9
Birdie Tebbetts .983* A A 10
Gene Tenace .986 C B 13
Bill Dickey .993* A A 3
Bill Freehan .993 D C 7
Elston Howard .993 D A 7
Jim Sundberg .993 A A 3
Sherm Lollar .992 D B 10
Tom Haller .992 D B 10
Jerry Grote .991 A C 4
Lance Parrish .991 A A 5
Ray Schalk .991* A A 4
Bob Boone .986 A B 9
Del Rice .987 C C 10
Andy Seminick .977 C B 12
Al Lopez .990* A A 5
Buddy Rosar .992 A A 4
Mike Scioscia .988 A B 9
Earl Battey .990 D B 11
Smoky Burgess .988 E C 18
Del Crandell .989 B A 9
Darren Daulton .988 D A 11
Rick Ferrell .989* A A 5
Rich Gedman .984 D B 14
Rollie Hemsley .988* A A 6
Charles Johnson .995 B A 3
Thurman Munson .982 A B 12
Clay Dalrymple .987 A A 8
Mickey Owen .987* C A 12
Muddy Ruel .992* A A 4
Manny Sanguillan .986 C B 12
Ted Simmons .987 C B 12
Gus Triandos .987 D B 12
Rube Walker .982 D B 13
Steve Yeager .987 A C 9
Mike Levalliere .992 C B 10
Johnny Roseboro .989 C A 11
Carlton Fisk .988 C B 11
Rick Dempsey .988 C B 11

THIS RESEARCH IS NOT PERFECT...YOU ARE WELCOME TO ADJUST
THEM WHEREVER NECESSARY.

COMMENTS WILL BE APPRECIATED.

The Passed Ball Rating is based on the number per 162 games.

*The asterisk by the Fielding Average indicated that it has been adjusted for Baseball eras. The oldtimers did not have the big gloves and well-manicured fields.

I also weighted the ratings using TOTAL BASEBALL's "FR Rating".
This computes "the runs saved beyond the league average".
I only used this whenever a player got a much higher rating than indicated by his statistics. Statistics sometimes gives misleading information

GForce22 · 10-14-2002, 01:18 PM

Thanks Eugene. I'll at the very least use it as a guideline. But it's good to at least have somebody's take to go with.

Thanks again for the help.

GH

CBL-Commish · 10-15-2002, 01:24 PM

Obviously there's been some good work done here, but trying to discern catchers' defensive ratings based on traditional numbers or Total Baseball ratings is probably not going to be very accurate. I'd advise getting Win Shares and the New Historical Abstract and Baseball Prospectus and working from there. There are so many biases in traditional fielding stats and analysis that you'll come to almost as many wrong conclusions as right ones. Doesn't Total Baseball use Pete Palmer's fielding rating system from the Hidden Game of Baseball? James refutes much of this method at length in Win Shares (with apologies to Palmer, who is a good friend of James).

James (and the Prospectus guys in their books) try to account, in mind-numbing detail for all of those biases. Handedness and ground/fly ratios of pitching staffs. Independent putouts for first basemen. Catching numbers without the PO padding of strikeouts. The realization that PO for thirdbasemen are virtually meaningless. Expected versus actual double plays based on runners on base and ground ball percentages. And on and on. Work that's light years ahead of what's come before.

GForce22 · 10-15-2002, 01:38 PM

I understand that the figures Eugene provided are not perfect, but I think having them, along with my memory for recent guys and other sources (old cards for Statis Pro, strat o matic, etc) will at least get me in the ballpark. I do mean to pick up the books, it's just a matter of when. But having a decent guideline helps.
This is the area I will be looking for the most feedback on when the set gets released as beta.

GH

baseball brat · 10-15-2002, 01:43 PM

Have you simmed out a season with the Passed Ball ratings? I had a catcher who averaged 25 passed balls a season. With that rating, that same catcher had 115 passed balls in a simmed season. Anyone else experience anything like this?

GForce22 · 10-15-2002, 01:47 PM

I really haven't touched the passed balls. The default seems to be 4. Catcher ratings have been guess work until Eugene's figures, which I haven't implemented yet.

GH

CBL-Commish · 10-15-2002, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by baseball brat
Have you simmed out a season with the Passed Ball ratings? I had a catcher who averaged 25 passed balls a season. With that rating, that same catcher had 115 passed balls in a simmed season. Anyone else experience anything like this?

Yea, actually. I don't have the numbers handy, but I know the catchers in the Continental League have had PB totals way out of line with their ratings. Las Vegas' catcher had 44 passed balls, and 25-50 seems to be common. I know no one had a typed in total of more than 12 or 15. I'm pretty sure Geronimo Gil lead the real AL this year with around 20 or 25.

GForce22 · 10-15-2002, 02:52 PM

good to know. Will definitely have to check this out before the set is done.

GH

baseball brat · 10-15-2002, 03:04 PM

Yeah, I think I averaged it out and every passed ball in the Passed Ball rating actually equals about 4 to 5 passed balls when simmed. Those are my results, so don't quote me on it.

10-01-2002, 06:00 PM	#1 (permalink)
GForce22 Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 2,654	Catcher Throwing Arms: Ratings/Opinions Needed hey guys, OK, this is the toughest thing to rate, because SB/CS data isn't readily available for older players. So I need you guys for opinions. Catchers you can think of who may make their franchise all-time team...give me an idea of their arm rating. Even if it's not a particular letter grade, give me "good", "bad", "average", etc. I have nothing to go on here and, while I can do recent guys on my own, older guys are more difficult (of course, I would still like opinions on recent guys as well). Any help you can provide is appreciated. Thanks in advance. GH

10-01-2002, 07:32 PM	#2 (permalink)
LivnLegend Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Hunters Ridge, CA Posts: 5,530 Thanked 1x in 1 post	I'll continue to give feedback on the Dodgers as best I can… Roy Campanella: From what I have read, Campy's defense was as feared as his hitting. Although he only led the league in assists once it was apparently largely because less runners would take chances on him, very similar to Bench. Despite being confined to a wheelchair, Campanella was instrumental in helping coach young Dodgers catchers like Yeager and Ferguson in spring training. I don't have it in front of me but I am sure I read that Bill James gave very high praise to Campanella's defense. Mike Scioscia: The problem with Mike is he was a great defensive catcher with an average arm. Scioscia's plate blocking skills and ability to get balls in the dirt are very well documented -- he was the best of his era in those regards. Mike was also known well for his ability to handle a pitching staff and call a game. The fact is though, his throwing arm was average at best. John Roseboro handled Drysdale and Koufax expertly and won two Gold Gloves. Arm was average to above average. His range factor was over a full point above his league's average and I think James has him listed in the top 30 catchers all-time. __________________ 1977 Dodgers MLB Replay - A replay of the '77 Dodger season, managing each game individually Pastoral Baseball Union - An 1800's Dynasty I'm going back to where I started. I'm flashing back into my pan.

10-15-2002, 01:24 PM	#14 (permalink)
CBL-Commish All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Maryland Posts: 1,689 Thanked 98x in 56 posts	Obviously there's been some good work done here, but trying to discern catchers' defensive ratings based on traditional numbers or Total Baseball ratings is probably not going to be very accurate. I'd advise getting Win Shares and the New Historical Abstract and Baseball Prospectus and working from there. There are so many biases in traditional fielding stats and analysis that you'll come to almost as many wrong conclusions as right ones. Doesn't Total Baseball use Pete Palmer's fielding rating system from the Hidden Game of Baseball? James refutes much of this method at length in Win Shares (with apologies to Palmer, who is a good friend of James). James (and the Prospectus guys in their books) try to account, in mind-numbing detail for all of those biases. Handedness and ground/fly ratios of pitching staffs. Independent putouts for first basemen. Catching numbers without the PO padding of strikeouts. The realization that PO for thirdbasemen are virtually meaningless. Expected versus actual double plays based on runners on base and ground ball percentages. And on and on. Work that's light years ahead of what's come before. __________________ For the best in O's news: Orioles' Hangout.com

10-15-2002, 01:43 PM	#16 (permalink)
baseball brat Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 118	Passed ball rating Have you simmed out a season with the Passed Ball ratings? I had a catcher who averaged 25 passed balls a season. With that rating, that same catcher had 115 passed balls in a simmed season. Anyone else experience anything like this?

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10-01-2002, 11:09 PM	#3 (permalink)
GForce22 Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 2,654	thanks LL...is this info all in the Win Shares book? If so, I may need to accelerate my purchase, because this catcher defense is the hardest thing for me to rate for the all-time project. GH

10-02-2002, 01:16 AM	#4 (permalink)
Raven Minors (Single A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 94	It's not in James' "Win Shares" book, it's in his "New Historical Baseball Abstract".

10-10-2002, 09:47 PM	#5 (permalink)
Eugene Church Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 16,947 Thanked 96x in 50 posts	In Total Baseball there is a "FR" rating for players. This is the "number of runs saved". I did some quick research and found Jim Hegan had the highest rating...Yogi Berra scored well, too...Rick Dempsey, Roy Campanella, Mickey Cochrane, Mike Scioscia, Gary Carter and Wes Westrum were also rated well...Andy Echebarren, Carlton Fisk. Elston Howard, Andy Seminick, and Johnny Roseboro were above average...and suprisingly, Johnny Bench and Bill Dickey were only average. It will take a little work, but if you think this will help, send me a list of catchers and I'll get their ratings. Include Negro League players' names and I'll research them, too. A great source for Negro League greats is "The Biographical Encyclopedia of Negro League Players" by James Riley. Hope this helps.

10-11-2002, 12:05 AM	#6 (permalink)
GForce22 Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 2,654	Eugene, Thanks a lot. This would be a HUGE help. The rosters for 12 teams are at www.geocities.com/ghenglein/league.htm If you don't want to get them from there I will try to type up a list for you in the next few days. Thanks again! GH

10-11-2002, 02:25 PM	#7 (permalink)
Eugene Church Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 16,947 Thanked 96x in 50 posts	I got the list of catchers from the website you gave me. I will send the ratings info for catchers within the next 2-3 days.

10-11-2002, 03:12 PM	#8 (permalink)
GForce22 Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 2,654	Thank you VERY much Eugene. It's much appreciated. GH

10-11-2002, 05:59 PM	#9 (permalink)
MrAlphabet Minors (Single A) Join Date: May 2002 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 52	Where's the Padres?

10-11-2002, 06:42 PM	#10 (permalink)
GForce22 Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 2,654	Padres will be done soon. Next to be entered are Mariners, Mets, Orioles and Padres. GH

10-11-2002, 07:16 PM	#11 (permalink)
MrAlphabet Minors (Single A) Join Date: May 2002 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 52	If you need help with the Padres I've been a fan of theirs since the early 80's

10-12-2002, 04:38 PM	#12 (permalink)
Eugene Church Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 16,947 Thanked 96x in 50 posts	This is the best info I could find...not as good as I would like...but it seems to be pretty accurate...I used TOTAL BASEBALL and the LAHMAN DATABASE. NAME FA RANGE ARM PB's Buck Rodgers .988 A A 5 Gabby Hartnett .989* B A 5 Johnny Kling .990* A A 5 Sandy Alomar .977 B C 8 Steve O'Neill .987* A A 6 Dave Nilsson .987 D D 16 Ellie Rodriguez .989 B D 7 Mickey Cochrane .990* A A 3 Terry Steinbach .987 D C 12 Pat Borders .988 B C 9 Ernie Whitt .991 D C 11 Javy Lopez .994 C C 7 Joe Torre .990 D C 12 Alan Ashby .986 A C 5 Johnny Edwards .992 B A 3 Roy Campanella .988 C A 7 Mike Piazza .988 C C 10 Gary Carter .991 A A 4 Darren Fletlcher .993 D D 10 Roger Bresnahan .986* A B 5 Wes Westrum .985 C A 9 Walker Cooper .982* C C 12 Tim McCarver .990 D C 11 Here are some others that you may need in the future: NAME FA RANGE ARM PB'S Brad Ausmus .992 B A 5 Yogi Berra .989 C A 8 Johnny Bench .990 C A 8 Jim Hegan .990 C A 8 Ivan Rodriguez .987 A A 9 Birdie Tebbetts .983* A A 10 Gene Tenace .986 C B 13 Bill Dickey .993* A A 3 Bill Freehan .993 D C 7 Elston Howard .993 D A 7 Jim Sundberg .993 A A 3 Sherm Lollar .992 D B 10 Tom Haller .992 D B 10 Jerry Grote .991 A C 4 Lance Parrish .991 A A 5 Ray Schalk .991* A A 4 Bob Boone .986 A B 9 Del Rice .987 C C 10 Andy Seminick .977 C B 12 Al Lopez .990* A A 5 Buddy Rosar .992 A A 4 Mike Scioscia .988 A B 9 Earl Battey .990 D B 11 Smoky Burgess .988 E C 18 Del Crandell .989 B A 9 Darren Daulton .988 D A 11 Rick Ferrell .989* A A 5 Rich Gedman .984 D B 14 Rollie Hemsley .988* A A 6 Charles Johnson .995 B A 3 Thurman Munson .982 A B 12 Clay Dalrymple .987 A A 8 Mickey Owen .987* C A 12 Muddy Ruel .992* A A 4 Manny Sanguillan .986 C B 12 Ted Simmons .987 C B 12 Gus Triandos .987 D B 12 Rube Walker .982 D B 13 Steve Yeager .987 A C 9 Mike Levalliere .992 C B 10 Johnny Roseboro .989 C A 11 Carlton Fisk .988 C B 11 Rick Dempsey .988 C B 11 THIS RESEARCH IS NOT PERFECT...YOU ARE WELCOME TO ADJUST THEM WHEREVER NECESSARY. COMMENTS WILL BE APPRECIATED. The Passed Ball Rating is based on the number per 162 games. *The asterisk by the Fielding Average indicated that it has been adjusted for Baseball eras. The oldtimers did not have the big gloves and well-manicured fields. I also weighted the ratings using TOTAL BASEBALL's "FR Rating". This computes "the runs saved beyond the league average". I only used this whenever a player got a much higher rating than indicated by his statistics. Statistics sometimes gives misleading information

10-14-2002, 01:18 PM	#13 (permalink)
GForce22 Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 2,654	Thanks Eugene. I'll at the very least use it as a guideline. But it's good to at least have somebody's take to go with. Thanks again for the help. GH

10-15-2002, 01:38 PM	#15 (permalink)
GForce22 Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 2,654	I understand that the figures Eugene provided are not perfect, but I think having them, along with my memory for recent guys and other sources (old cards for Statis Pro, strat o matic, etc) will at least get me in the ballpark. I do mean to pick up the books, it's just a matter of when. But having a decent guideline helps. This is the area I will be looking for the most feedback on when the set gets released as beta. GH

10-15-2002, 01:47 PM	#17 (permalink)
GForce22 Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 2,654	I really haven't touched the passed balls. The default seems to be 4. Catcher ratings have been guess work until Eugene's figures, which I haven't implemented yet. GH

10-15-2002, 02:52 PM	#19 (permalink)
GForce22 Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 2,654	good to know. Will definitely have to check this out before the set is done. GH

10-15-2002, 03:04 PM	#20 (permalink)
baseball brat Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 118	Yeah, I think I averaged it out and every passed ball in the Passed Ball rating actually equals about 4 to 5 passed balls when simmed. Those are my results, so don't quote me on it.