Cecil Fielder a shortstop???

[Elendil]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Right, but again, what that discussion isn't taking into account is the learning curve. Yes, it's easier than SS, but there *is* still a learning curve. The ball comes off the bat at a different angle, and you have to make entirely different plays. I agree that anyone who can play SS would eventually be a great defensive first baseman...but not immediately.

That's not the way OOTP works, at least back to 2007. Experience makes an enormous difference in fielding ability now. Put even an excellent SS at 1B with no prior experience at the latter position, and he'll make a ton of errors in OOTP. Once he's built up experience, of course, he'll be a fantastic 1B if he has good range & hands.

[rwd59]

Originally Posted by Giants44

to me this is a problem. I believe the game should look at a players career as a whole to decide what position he should play - not simply what he was able to do very briefly as a rookie.

In his entire career he played 6 innings at second, and 10 at third. over 7,000 innings at 1B and another 500+ games as a DH. Big Cecil should not be considered anything but a 1B/DH.

AMEN BROTHER!!!!!!

[rudel.dietrich]

This is exactly why real MLB rosters should have never been included in OOTP

[Left-handed Badger]

Well the 2B/3B is a little wierd. But I have seen that happen with RF/LF (to protect as much as possible a weak defensive OF). I think McGraw even flipped his corner OFs one World Series based on who was hitting (LHB or RHB)

[Another Mike D]

Originally Posted by Giants44

to me this is a problem. I believe the game should look at a players career as a whole to decide what position he should play - not simply what he was able to do very briefly as a rookie.

In his entire career he played 6 innings at second, and 10 at third. over 7,000 innings at 1B and another 500+ games as a DH. Big Cecil should not be considered anything but a 1B/DH

Cecil Fielder Statistics - Baseball-Reference.com

Well, I'll take a look at it today with some other players (like Biggio, Sheffield, etc) and see how their defense imports at different stages. Maybe there can be a threshold of like X games or something needed to attain a rating.

I just think this is the fun part about OOTP. What if Sheffield had stayed at SS, or Fielder had played more at 3B and didn't gain 50 pounds? Guys like Fielder are obviously not normal (Sheff too) in that the very beginning of their career they were much different physically and defensively. But for historical accuracy, I agree this could be a problem for somebody who just wants to exactly recreate history. Like I said, I don't mind alternative paths.

[clamel]

Thinking about Sheffield as he is a good example.

Over the year he has moved around some and playing in a historical dynasty WITH new imported histy stats every year he should move around BUT during the year concerned.

I was bringing this up regarding pitchers. Kerry Wood starter to top closer, John Smoltz and many more.

One expect the game to do as it´s said. When you play a year Smoltz did start he should start, then he would convert to the closer.
This was instructed to me by someone in "charge" back in OOTP8.

I know a dynasty should have the liberty to overrule this, since in some cases some pitchers changed for unseen reasons that MAY NOT happen in your dynasty. Injuries trades ....
It´s hard to gamewise get this right, but still I think a harder look at the primary positions should be given, and if he played a majority of innings at a certain position that should be the case for history sake.
The AI must then find another player for that odd position OR trade for one, like perhaps it happend in real life.
Positions for historical dynasty are VERY important I believe....

[rwd59]

Originally Posted by clamel

Thinking about Sheffield as he is a good example.

Over the year he has moved around some and playing in a historical dynasty WITH new imported histy stats every year he should move around BUT during the year concerned.

I was bringing this up regarding pitchers. Kerry Wood starter to top closer, John Smoltz and many more.

One expect the game to do as it´s said. When you play a year Smoltz did start he should start, then he would convert to the closer.
This was instructed to me by someone in "charge" back in OOTP8.

I know a dynasty should have the liberty to overrule this, since in some cases some pitchers changed for unseen reasons that MAY NOT happen in your dynasty. Injuries trades ....
It´s hard to gamewise get this right, but still I think a harder look at the primary positions should be given, and if he played a majority of innings at a certain position that should be the case for history sake.
The AI must then find another player for that odd position OR trade for one, like perhaps it happend in real life.
Positions for historical dynasty are VERY important I believe....

Therefore my question. I realize this is probably not possile for this version, maybe never. But, (options, options, options) could there be a setup were you could choose only to recalc defensive ratings every year? If not then return the option of allowing those who want positions assigned based on a players entire career. Also, if possible, an option to not allow the AI to teach(?) or assign players to positions they are not initially rated for. The historical player could choose what he wanted. Obviously I know the fictional player probably would not be interested in this option but as an option he wouldn't have to do it. May be way too hard to code.

[rwd59]

Originally Posted by Another Mike D

Well, I'll take a look at it today with some other players (like Biggio, Sheffield, etc) and see how their defense imports at different stages. Maybe there can be a threshold of like X games or something needed to attain a rating.

That's good. Biggio is a good example. As the game is now, he will import as a C and stay there. 2B and CF will never show up for him. Now I will say that I could almost handle this because he was moved mainly too keep his legs for his speed and to prolong his career. He was a good C. But others, Dale Murphy would only be a C and he was awful. He couldn't even throw the ball back to the pitcher. Cecil Fielder was never going to be anything other than a 1B/DH. Ron Gant played 2B his rookie season and he was terrible. They moved him to 3B the next year and had to return him to the minors because his fielding woes led to hitting woes. When he returned as an OF he had a pretty good career. He never regularly played anything other than OF again. There are hundreds or thousands of Fielders, Gants, and Murphys in the game but very few Biggios or Ripkens (Came up as a very good 3B who moved to SS when their better fielding but no hit SS left). This issue really bothers me as I guess most can tell because the game has done this for a number of versions and has now gone back to the rookie season. This is one of the reasons (probably the biggest) so many people came out with modified DB in earlier versions of OOTP. As far as the threshold, maybe the player must play a certain % of his total games played at a particular position to be rated there.

[StyxNCa]

I'm glad to see other finally bringing up the defensive aspect of the game. I have had problems with it for a long time and I think this is an aspect , at least when using historical players, that has been pretty much ignored by Markus. Hopefully he will start working on this.

[SittingDuck]

So are these leagues being run on the AI Evaluation or Real Stats method for positioning?

[rwd59]

Always real stats for me.

[akw4572]

Why can't Cecil be a SS, Dusty Baker's putting Javier Valentin at 3b for the Reds tonight.

[SittingDuck]

I do know that Garlon is trying to push forward a revamping of the historical fielding model, or something to that effect..

[Jose Cardenal's Afro]

Originally Posted by David Watts

If you had Cecil at short who would be your ideal 2B to complete DP combo?---I'm thinking of several --John Mayberry, George Scott, Boog Powell, Harman Killebrew etc.

Willie Stargell --- Greg Luzinski

[griffeyin98]

Originally Posted by akw4572

Why can't Cecil be a SS, Dusty Baker's putting Javier Valentin at 3b for the Reds tonight.

No argument can ever be validated using something that Dusty baker does as reference.

[Another Mike D]

Just so historical peeps don't feel ignored, I did some simming yesterday and today. I'll first re-iterate that I like the fact that different career paths can be taken, especially guys that broke in to the league at one position and moved.

That being, as far as people who play the game and want to maintain "perfect" historical accuracy, this could be a problem. I have to look into it more, but I started in 1980, used no recalc, ratings based on career, and Cecil showed up as 1B in the 1984 draft. I use mid-season drafts, but he showed up a big power hitting 1B. Now the prior year, Danny Tartabull showed up in the draft a SS, as it seems his first 2 seasons he played about 25 games at SS before moving to 3B and eventually the OF. I'm going to see if any of this can be improved upon (such as using career positions, etc) but I believe a lot of this may be database limitations. So I haven't been able to reproduce Fielder, but I've seen a few guys show up as the position they played for their first season (amounting to 15-20 games in some cases) permanently stay at that position. I like it, others may not.

[rwd59]

It doesn't have to be a problem. Give both sides what they want. That is the way the game used to be. The game used to have an option to base defense off career stats or you could leave it alone and base them on the import season. Also, as it is now you can play more than 1 position in your rookie season and still only get rated at 1 position. Unfortunately, there may be a need for the return of the modified DB makers.

[Another Mike D]

Well, the problem lies in that I'm not sure how the game imports info from the DB. In my historical tests, Cecil imported as a 1B, but Big Mac imported as a 3B. He played a handful of games there his rookie year (and maybe his second) and then nothing but 1B/DH. If it's using career totals to calculate ratings, I'm not sure why it can't give him a 1 at 3B, and 5 at 1B (or whatever).

[rwd59]

It is not using career stats, only the first season and therin lies the problem, at least for me. Dale Murphy a catcher. As you said, Mark McGwire a 3B. At one time you had a choice of having all players defense based on career stats at import, or based on the rookie year. Now it is only the rookie year that is available, a huge step backwards as far as I am concerned. Again not only is the positions available based on the rookie season, but it does not rate a player at all the positions he played as a rookie. In another thread I pointed out that the game imported Willie McCovey as a LF only. He actually played 79(?) games in LF, 26 games at 1B, and 5 games in RF. The game does not rate him at 1B or RF. I could amost understand no RF rating, but why no 1B rating?

[clamel]

Originally Posted by rwd59

It is not using career stats, only the first season and therin lies the problem, at least for me. Dale Murphy a catcher. As you said, Mark McGwire a 3B. At one time you had a choice of having all players defense based on career stats at import, or based on the rookie year. Now it is only the rookie year that is available, a huge step backwards as far as I am concerned. Again not only is the positions available based on the rookie season, but it does not rate a player at all the positions he played as a rookie. In another thread I pointed out that the game imported Willie McCovey as a LF only. He actually played 79(?) games in LF, 26 games at 1B, and 5 games in RF. The game does not rate him at 1B or RF. I could amost understand no RF rating, but why no 1B rating?

I´m shocked....
I assumed that each year new calcs are imported BOTH offensive and defensive. Since I understood this was the way with pitchers.
This scares me that the position the player FIRST got imported with should stay OR be changed on the AI's own will.
I hoped that this creating a dynasty with historical players really IS historical in the fact dealing with stats on offense AND defense.