Economic Crisis

[t-bone shuffle]

Originally Posted by PhillieFever

Just out of curiosity,what teams did you contract,is it the newer teams like Tampa and Colorado or is it the seemingly perennial uncompetitive like Pittsburgh and Kansas City? In my Universe,I was contemplating stopping expansion after 1977 and keeping Milwaukee in the AL just as a little wrinkle to a pretty much straight forward Historical.

Using the newest roster set by Cubby, for 2009, I contracted KC, Toronto, Cincy, Pittsburgh, Arizona and Minnesota. The only real question mark in that group as far as I'm concerned is Minnesota. Arizona's been drowning in debt for years. KC, Cincy and Pittsburgh are essentially minor league towns and Toronto, well who knows if Canada will still be there when the recession ends . In reality, Minnesota has approved funding for a new stadium, so they are a very unlikely candidate, but in the end, mostly I was going on a mix of market size coupled with my perceived local support.

The other thing I did was move the Marlins to the Austin/San Antonio, TX market and renamed them CenTex Express. This could probably never happen in reality because the Astros, and to a much lesser extent the Rangers, make a big effort to market to this area (and have for years, so certainly there'd be a loyalty issue, which I affected in both their loyalty and interest ratings), and I'm certain the Astros would bring court action before a major league team were allowed to set up shop in Central Texas.

Which is all beside the point of course. I just like to see a smaller MLB, with real players and a dispersal draft set to favor the remaining bottom feeders. Additionally, this keeps the teams/players where you are used to seeing them, with some interesting additions to make it unpredictable.

[PhillieFever]

Originally Posted by t-bone shuffle

Using the newest roster set by Cubby, for 2009, I contracted KC, Toronto, Cincy, Pittsburgh, Arizona and Minnesota. The only real question mark in that group as far as I'm concerned is Minnesota. Arizona's been drowning in debt for years. KC, Cincy and Pittsburgh are essentially minor league towns and Toronto, well who knows if Canada will still be there when the recession ends . In reality, Minnesota has approved funding for a new stadium, so they are a very unlikely candidate, but in the end, mostly I was going on a mix of market size coupled with my perceived local support.

The other thing I did was move the Marlins to the Austin/San Antonio, TX market and renamed them CenTex Express. This could probably never happen in reality because the Astros, and to a much lesser extent the Rangers, make a big effort to market to this area (and have for years, so certainly there'd be a loyalty issue, which I affected in both their loyalty and interest ratings), and I'm certain the Astros would bring court action before a major league team were allowed to set up shop in Central Texas.

Which is all beside the point of course. I just like to see a smaller MLB, with real players and a dispersal draft set to favor the remaining bottom feeders. Additionally, this keeps the teams/players where you are used to seeing them, with some interesting additions to make it unpredictable.

I really like the dynamic that would create,one question though.I play with rookies entering the league with the team they broke in with,what would happen to the players from the expansion teams,free agent pool I'm assuming.another idea I'm toying with is never implementing the DH.I'm in 1972 right now so its not an issue,but starting next season,the AL adopts the biggest abomination in all of sports,the designated hitter.I hate it but I'm leaning on adopting it anyway.One day it will be abolished,and along with it the 4 man rotation will return!!!

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by injury log

The game would be more interesting if finances evolved realistically in fictional universes, with the inflation and dips and bumps that affect the real life economy, and thus real life baseball. Not a high priority at the moment in my mind, given that there are fundamental game areas that need fixing...

I would argue that the financial system is pretty darn important given that one of the primary aims of the game is for the user to take on the role of General Manager. And dealing with finances is a key part of being a GM (the transaction rules would be another key part).

[Ktulu]

The financial system is also directly linked to AI player evaluation, you can't fix one without the other. So ya, I'd argue the financial system is one of the very core elements of the game.

[MB.Pelicans]

Originally Posted by t-bone shuffle

Using the newest roster set by Cubby, for 2009, I contracted KC, Toronto, Cincy, Pittsburgh, Arizona and Minnesota. The only real question mark in that group as far as I'm concerned is Minnesota. Arizona's been drowning in debt for years. KC, Cincy and Pittsburgh are essentially minor league towns and Toronto, well who knows if Canada will still be there when the recession ends . In reality, Minnesota has approved funding for a new stadium, so they are a very unlikely candidate, but in the end, mostly I was going on a mix of market size coupled with my perceived local support.

The other thing I did was move the Marlins to the Austin/San Antonio, TX market and renamed them CenTex Express. This could probably never happen in reality because the Astros, and to a much lesser extent the Rangers, make a big effort to market to this area (and have for years, so certainly there'd be a loyalty issue, which I affected in both their loyalty and interest ratings), and I'm certain the Astros would bring court action before a major league team were allowed to set up shop in Central Texas.

Which is all beside the point of course. I just like to see a smaller MLB, with real players and a dispersal draft set to favor the remaining bottom feeders. Additionally, this keeps the teams/players where you are used to seeing them, with some interesting additions to make it unpredictable.

How do you set up the dispersal draft? I am interested in trying this, but I hsve no idea how you would do this in the game.

[injury log]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

I would argue that the financial system is pretty darn important given that one of the primary aims of the game is for the user to take on the role of General Manager. And dealing with finances is a key part of being a GM (the transaction rules would be another key part).

One sec, seems there's a straw man in the room. I never said the financial system was unimportant - that would be a ridiculous thing to say. It's a crucial part of the game, and the lingering issues need to be fixed. What isn't such a high priority, in my mind, is to model economic effects like inflation or recessions in fictional universes, which is the only thing I discussed in my post you quoted.

[rudel.dietrich]

Wolf is trying to take the moral highground to try and pick up a postive image. Too bad he has had zero respect since the day he started posting on the forums.

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally Posted by Raidergoo

The simplest way to model an economic downturn would be to reduce average attendance, reduce merchandising revenue, reduce media revenue, and reduce average ticket prices, but nothing else.

Fewer people will come to the park, spend less money while there, but your costs will be the same.

To post something on topic. This is the best idea in this thread for how to model the current state of the economy.

However I would venture to say that the state of the economy has not had a impact on baseball as of yet and it will be some months before data comes in suggesting that it will even have a effect at all.
We have been in a recession for going on 12-18 months now (depending on the source and definition of a recession) and MLB in 2008 postings either its #1 or #2 most revenue in it's history. $6.6 billion
Now that the general public knows that we are in a recession might impact baseball.
But we will have to wait and see.


But to go back to my original point, Raidergoo has the best ideas in this thread

[spitfire]

Originally Posted by Fallschirmjager

However I would venture to say that the state of the economy has not had a impact on baseball as of yet and it will be some months before data comes in suggesting that it will even have a effect at all. We have been in a recession for going on 12-18 months now (depending on the source and definition of a recession) and MLB in 2008 postings either its #1 or #2 most revenue in it's history. $6.6 billion
Now that the general public knows that we are in a recession might impact baseball. But we will have to wait and see.

It seems pretty unlikely that baseball won't be heavily impacted by the economic situation. Looking at other pro sports, some NHL teams, including the champion Detroit Red Wings, are discounting tix by huge amounts to try and draw people into the building. I hear Nashville is offering tickets for nine bucks. Stock car racing teams have conducted large layoffs of personnel as corporate sponsorships disappear. Baseball would have to be more than lucky not to suffer to some degree the same way. Corporate advertising and season ticket sales were already in the bank by the time the economy really went south, as they were for hockey teams. As many have pointed out, it won't be until next year that the crunch will really be felt. I can't predict that MLB will be hit as hard as the NHL (where the tv money is far less) as the profile of the ball teams is generally hgher and advertising dollars in many markets are more likely to be directed to football and baseball franchises than to hockey clubs. Still, it would be difficult to envision baseball sailing through with no problems.

[Curtis]

Originally Posted by spitfire

Stock car racing teams have conducted large layoffs of personnel as corporate sponsorships disappear.

I'm not disputing anything else in your post, but NASCAR and the European Grand Prix systems have been in retrenchment mode for a couple of years now and will continue so into this year. Certainly the general economy has had some effect, and the specific depression in the automobile industry even more, but I suspect that NASCAR simply expanded beyond the point its business model could sustain while Grand Prix and Indy Car have passed their peaks of fan interest. They also all got too expensive. Locally, though, stock car (dirt track) racing is as popular as ever, and still growing in northern New York.

I really think football and baseball will be less affected by the recession than other sports. Baseball because it's a cheap ticket relative to other forms of big city entertainment, and football due to its limited supply (number of games, though I understand they're trying to stretch the season again) artificially keeping demand high and stadiums full. And both have those guaranteed media contracts spitfire mentioned as cushions.

[PhillieFever]

Originally Posted by Fallschirmjager

To post something on topic. This is the best idea in this thread for how to model the current state of the economy.

However I would venture to say that the state of the economy has not had a impact on baseball as of yet and it will be some months before data comes in suggesting that it will even have a effect at all.
We have been in a recession for going on 12-18 months now (depending on the source and definition of a recession) and MLB in 2008 postings either its #1 or #2 most revenue in it's history. $6.6 billion
Now that the general public knows that we are in a recession might impact baseball.
But we will have to wait and see.


But to go back to my original point, Raidergoo has the best ideas in this thread

Oh I think the recession has absolutely had an impact on Baseball,how else could you account for the abundance of quality free agents still available just 10 days from pitchers and catchers except for owner trepidation due to fear of poor gate and merchandise reciepts.There's no way players like Ramirez,Ken Griffey,Bobby Abreu,Orlando Cabrera,and their ilk would be available in past years.

[1998 Yankees]

Originally Posted by myasu

Well, that was my initial thought, but it is not my intention at all to hurt somebody's feeling.

Anyways, I would like to say this again.
If this thread made anyone feel unpleasant, I appologize.
It was and is not my intention to do so.

myasu, you have nothing to apologize for (although this comment is coming from the guy who was crowing recently about his game giving one of his nasty opponents a case of lymphoma ).

Originally Posted by Raidergoo

The simplest way to model an economic downturn would be to reduce average attendance, reduce merchandising revenue, reduce media revenue, and reduce average ticket prices, but nothing else.

Fewer people will come to the park, spend less money while there, but your costs will be the same.

I have a feeling everything would reach an equilibrium again, with the same differences in team fortunes attributable to relative market sizes, just at a lower economic level.

[Raidergoo]

Originally Posted by 1998 Yankees

I have a feeling everything would reach an equilibrium again, with the same differences in team fortunes attributable to relative market sizes, just at a lower economic level.

That is the idea. But, really, economic downturns don't last all that long, and have been fairly common over the history of baseball.

[spitfire]

Originally Posted by Curtis

I'm not disputing anything else in your post, but NASCAR and the European Grand Prix systems have been in retrenchment mode for a couple of years now and will continue so into this year. Certainly the general economy has had some effect, and the specific depression in the automobile industry even more, but I suspect that NASCAR simply expanded beyond the point its business model could sustain while Grand Prix and Indy Car have passed their peaks of fan interest. They also all got too expensive. Locally, though, stock car (dirt track) racing is as popular as ever, and still growing in northern New York.

Perhaps. But I think Nascar has more serious problems than just over-expanding. Certainly the difficulties of the auto industry have had a major impact, and the general corporate downturn has as well. Steve McCormick's racing blog Economy Squeezes NASCAR Teamsof Dec. 18 put it this way ....

"The economic crunch is definitely affecting NASCAR. Sponsors have pulled out of the sport as they tighten their budgets leaving some of the smaller teams struggling to prepare for the 2009 season. With just over two months until the 2009 Daytona 500 NASCAR faces the very real possibility of life without Petty Enterprises. Petty can't find a sponsor for either of their teams including the legendary #43 currently driven by Bobby Labonte. Petty isn't the only team hit hard. A quick look at Jayski's layoff count shows that since the end of the season almost 600 people have been laid off from NASCAR teams. It's not just the small teams cutting as Earnhardt, Childress, Roush and Gibbs are all making cuts as a result of the economy."

I agree that Grand Prix racing has been trying to cut back for a couple of years, as costs have just gotten totally ridiculous. Indy car racing I don't think ever recovered from splitting into two competing series. My original example mentioned Nascar only as being a direct impact of the economy, so I don't disagree with most of your post.

Jeepers, is it really only a couple of weeks to pitchers & catchers reporting? Where has the winter gone??

[ballman]

I did this in a league recently and it wasn't that difficult to do. I cut the each team's market size in half. All that meant was that each team had less money to spend. I found that free agents eventually signed for less money than they orginally asked for.

Really was no big deal. I got the desired outcome and life went on.

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally Posted by PhillieFever

There's no way players like Ramirez,Ken Griffey,Bobby Abreu,Orlando Cabrera,and their ilk would be available in past years.

The economy has certainly had an impact on this but I also think that the revoloution going on inside baseball of sabermetric decision making has also had a impact.

All of the players you mentioned are very old players asking for a lot of money over long term contracts or very old players just looking for a chance.
Or in the case of Orlando Cabrera a player who is just league average at his posistion and declining defensivly.

This season and next should be interesting in seeing if revenues still break records or for the first time in over two decades decline.

[JackRules1]

I would have to be shocked if attendance didn't take a dip of maybe 4-5% this year, but heck, I went out to a mid-priced restaurant Friday night and the place was packed at 6:00pm. People don't seem quite ready to give up on their entertainment just yet.

[mpbarnet]

Hey,

I'm new here and new to the game. I am a Store Director (today) for Circuit City. Obviously, we are liquidating and I have been informed I will lose my job without severance within 6 weeks time.

That being said, I have ZERO issue with the idea in your thread. Its a baseball simulation and the more accurate it is to real life, the better the gameplay will be. I found the idea to be rather interesting and something I may do in the future.

Appreciate the forethought about others feelings, but as one of the others, I'm good with how you asked it and what the intent was.

Michael

[JackRules1]

That's a nice post, Michael. Good luck to you moving forward!

[myasu]

Originally Posted by mpbarnet

Hey,

I'm new here and new to the game. I am a Store Director (today) for Circuit City. Obviously, we are liquidating and I have been informed I will lose my job without severance within 6 weeks time.

That being said, I have ZERO issue with the idea in your thread. Its a baseball simulation and the more accurate it is to real life, the better the gameplay will be. I found the idea to be rather interesting and something I may do in the future.

Appreciate the forethought about others feelings, but as one of the others, I'm good with how you asked it and what the intent was.

Michael

Michael,

Thanks a lot for your thoughtful words.
I am so lucky to be a member of the high quality board like this.