OOTP v. DMB

[chaserbren]

The baseball sim league I belong to (and founded, though I no longer run it) uses Diamond Mind Baseball. DMB has decided to stop producing the annual projection disks which we run our league off of, leaving us in the lurch (the buggers).
One option we're considering is switching to OOTP. Could someone familiar with both systems, provide some insight to a newbie on the advantages of OOTP?
Also, one factor which is important to many of our members (though not all) is the ability to play head to head. This doesn't seem to be an option with OOTP, is it an option which might be in the works for the future?

[TribeFanInNC]

I haven't played DMB in a few years, but a couple things off the top of my head:

1) online league functionality is included in the OOTP game; everyone just uploads their changes to an ftp server, commish loads these changes and sims, users download file in-game, rinse and repeat. I assume you are emailing files or something in DMB right now. Also, the game produces html reports that can be viewed on the internet.

2) OOTP doesn't have real transaction and injury logs like DMB has, though that probably doesn't matter much for what you are doing

3) OOTP is 10000x more customizable than DMB. You want a rule 5 draft, add it. You want to start your season on April 13th, no problem. You want to add a AA minor league, done deal. Financials, OOTP has it. Purple uniforms with pink pinstripes...well, the game can do it anyway.

There is a learning curve with the interface and the game, though DMB might be the only game that is worse (I never liked the DMB interface, even windows-based). But I truly think that anyone that gets past the initial few hours will never pick up DMB again.

I admit, though, that DMB can generally reproduce single season replays better than OOTP. Also, many say that the in-game play-by-play in DMB is richer, though the gap has narrowed considerably of late.

With regards to head-to-head, many others in the community would also like to see it, however I didn't see it on the new feature list for this year's version. There are ways around it with third party apps if interested.

Come to the Dark Side. You'll like it!!!

[DiMaggio5CF]

Originally Posted by chaserbren

Also, one factor which is important to many of our members (though not all) is the ability to play head to head. This doesn't seem to be an option with OOTP, is it an option which might be in the works for the future?

Actually, head-to-head was promised several versions ago... so no, it doesn't exist in OOTP.

[chaserbren]

Does the online functionality include player signings and trades or does the league commish still have to handle those?

[kq76]

I'm not overly familiar with DMB myself, but I know comparisons between the two have been discussed at length before so you'd likely get some good info from a search. Look for long threads among the search results.

I'd consider myself lucky that they're forcing you to look elsewhere. I don't remember how much they were, but I remember thinking it was outrageous what they were asking for those season disks. Sure, DMB is probably better for some people (I wish I could remember all the advantages and disadvantages that people have laid out here before), but it always seemed to me that while OOTP might not be good enough in some areas for DMBers, OOTP probably would have been better for a lot of them if only they had found it first.

As for head to head, don't count on it, ever. See, it was once floated as a feature Markus would like to put into the game, but it proved too difficult so it was dropped (I'm not surprised considering how difficult it seems to be for some other companies to add good head to head play in their games). Since then people always ask about it and it's a bit of a running joke now. Who knows, maybe one day we will see it. Just don't hold your breath.

Oh, if I recall correctly the main thing with DMB is that it is highly accurate in reproducing stats while OOTP has traditionally been more geared to producing good stats for any kind of league. However, OOTP has in the last few versions introduced some features that greatly improve the accuracy of results for hardcore replay fans. I'm not a replayer myself so I can't tell you much about all that, but others can tell you all about them. For now, though, the Historical Modifiers & Totals Options section of the manual (you'll need to scroll a bit) will probably interest you.

EDIT: Oh, and (I think) the Progressing Options too.

[TribeFanInNC]

Originally Posted by chaserbren

Does the online functionality include player signings and trades or does the league commish still have to handle those?

You can do player signings in-game. Trades are manually executed by the commish.

[battists]

Hi, and welcome chaserbren!

DMB and OOTP are both great games, in my opinion, but for some of the reasons other people mentioned above, we'd love for you to give OOTP a try.

One thing I should point out about head-to-head: while there is no head-to-head mode today (or in the upcoming OOTP 10, sadly), there is a new option available in OOTP as of last year called "replay." Most OOTP leagues simulate games, and the output of a single game is typically a game log and a box score. However, with "replays," you can actually choose to save the complete play-by-play for each game. Of course, I'm not claiming that it's the same thing as making the in-game calls yourself as in a true head-to-head, but it does allow you a greater degree of insight into how the games actually went down.

Not sure if that's "good enough" for your constituents, but I thought I would mention it!

Of course, someone else mentioned the customization. This is particularly cool for online leagues, as the game generates a huge # of HTML reports that you can share with your leagues. Here's one of many examples:

American Baseball Association Home

Let us know if you have any other questions!

Thanks,

Steve

[kq76]

Originally Posted by TribeFanInNC

With regards to head-to-head, many others in the community would also like to see it, however I didn't see it on the new feature list for this year's version. There are ways around it with third party apps if interested.

For more on how to do it see this thread. Pay particular attention to Comedian2004's post and battists last post in that thread. It was instructions for a past version, but I imagine it still applies.

EDIT: I just tested it in OOTP9 and it worked fine using two different managers. You'd have to be willing to give someone else control over your mouse/keyboard (through something like Remote Assistant if not sitting next to each other), but it is possible.

[spark240]

Outcomes in OOTP, unlike DMB, are based on the interaction of the player-models, according to the terms of the game-model. We can (and do) argue and complain about the quality of those models, but that's all there is to it. There is no pushing of the numbers towards what they "should" be, other than in a once-removed way if you're playing historical with recalc on.

[spitfire]

Originally Posted by TribeFanInNC

There is a learning curve with the interface and the game, though DMB might be the only game that is worse (I never liked the DMB interface, even windows-based). But I truly think that anyone that gets past the initial few hours will never pick up DMB again.

I play both and enjoy them both. With the various AI flaws that the in-game mode of OOTP presents, I don't use it to play individual games. Sim only. I treat it as a general manager simulation more than anything else. I use DMB for its fine in-game experience. Hopefully Markus will eliminate many of the problems with the in-game AI of OOTP (too many pinch-hitters, too many bunts, etc.) so that it can present as fine a game of ball as DMB does.

[TribeFanInNC]

Originally Posted by spitfire

I play both and enjoy them both. With the various AI flaws that the in-game mode of OOTP presents, I don't use it to play individual games. Sim only. I treat it as a general manager simulation more than anything else. I use DMB for its fine in-game experience. Hopefully Markus will eliminate many of the problems with the in-game AI of OOTP (too many pinch-hitters, too many bunts, etc.) so that it can present as fine a game of ball as DMB does.

OK, I'll admit to hyperbole

I'm sure some people that have played OOTP still like DMB. All this talk about it makes me want to find my copy and see if it is what I remember it to be.

[battists]

Markus has been working on the in-game AI this year.

[outrider64]

I started playing DMB before discovering OOTP. DMB is a great game, as far as accuracy and the rich play by play is tops in the industry. But with my household budget I could not afford to purchase extra seasons to enhance the game.
I then did some detective work and discovered OOTP 8. To be honest I was overwhelmed with it in the beginning. I played it sparily at first, not sure if it was right for me. I then decided to get OOTP9 after downloading the demo and reading almost every page of the manual. Since then I've barely touched DMB.
As a few members have stated the historical replays are not as accurate as DMB, but for myself I'm not a stickler for such things. I do like the "what if" aspect of OOTP and career mode. For example I started a league in 1980, but I chose not to import historical rookies on their original teams, just to see how things played out in a "fantasy universe".
There are all kinds of possiblities with OOTP. That's why the slogan It's your game play it your way. Or something like that.
I'm having a blast with version 9 and will be pre ordering OOTP10 in next few days. The price is right and you get every major league season for one price.
I'm not trying to influence your decision, but I'm quite happy with OOTP.
I look at it this way Diamond Mind is like the wife you've been married to for a long time. She was really great at first, but then things got boring , it was the same thing day after day. All of a sudden a hot new neighbour moves in next door, and before you know it the wife becomes the ex-wife. Just an analogy guys not speaking from personal experience!

[pstrickert]

Originally Posted by TribeFanInNC

All this talk about it makes me want to find my copy and see if it is what I remember it to be.

You mean "stale"?

[spitfire]

Originally Posted by battists

Markus has been working on the in-game AI this year.

That's good to hear. There certainly was enough work to do in that area to keep him busy! I'm looking forward to playing this year's edition of OOTP.

[David Gray]

Originally Posted by kq76

I'm not overly familiar with DMB myself, but I know comparisons between the two have been discussed at length before so you'd likely get some good info from a search. Look for long threads among the search results.

I'd consider myself lucky that they're forcing you to look elsewhere. I don't remember how much they were, but I remember thinking it was outrageous what they were asking for those season disks. Sure, DMB is probably better for some people (I wish I could remember all the advantages and disadvantages that people have laid out here before), but it always seemed to me that while OOTP might not be good enough in some areas for DMBers, OOTP probably would have been better for a lot of them if only they had found it first.

As for head to head, don't count on it, ever. See, it was once floated as a feature Markus would like to put into the game, but it proved too difficult so it was dropped (I'm not surprised considering how difficult it seems to be for some other companies to add good head to head play in their games). Since then people always ask about it and it's a bit of a running joke now. Who knows, maybe one day we will see it. Just don't hold your breath.

Oh, if I recall correctly the main thing with DMB is that it is highly accurate in reproducing stats while OOTP has traditionally been more geared to producing good stats for any kind of league. However, OOTP has in the last few versions introduced some features that greatly improve the accuracy of results for hardcore replay fans. I'm not a replayer myself so I can't tell you much about all that, but others can tell you all about them. For now, though, the Historical Modifiers & Totals Options section of the manual (you'll need to scroll a bit) will probably interest you.

EDIT: Oh, and (I think) the Progressing Options too.

Head to Head wasn't just "floated" as a feature, it was on the definite list of features and then everyone screamed for an early release and it was released without it with the promise it would follow. It never did and consequently OOTP hasn't gotten nearly as much of my (and my league partner's) money as it once did.

[RchW]

No discussion about DMB vs OOTP can be had without including cost. Nothing I've seen or heard about DMB makes it worth the money they charge. Just my personal.