Low injury setting or average?

[phightin]

I'm in my 5th season with my phillies team and recently downloaded the injury mod by injury because it's said to be more realistic in terms of the length of the injuries and the injuries themselves. Part of the reason I downloaded it was because of the crazy amount of career ending injuries I came across as well as just the crazy long term ones. I don't blame this download at all really, but I'm trying to speak to the larger issue of what setting is best to use. After 4 years of relatively being injury free besides a few here and there nothing season ending for my team, I and more so the whole league in general has just been ravished by them. I've had 5 CEIs in my league and I've already lost two players for the entire season. Should I just switch to low, things were fine up until this year. I can live with the injuries to my team but the 5 CEIs all to major players really upset me.

[Spritze]

Try this one

More Day to Day injuries (DDI) but not many normal injuries over 60 days

Nearly Zero CEI and SEI

[Spritze]

Or this one

Same as far as CEI and SEI but even more DDI

[injury log]

The file I made is no different from the default in the frequency of CEIs or SEIs. This is because of the game's injury implementation - the game first decides an injury happens, then determines its duration, and only then does it look at injuries.txt for a diagnosis. So you can't change the frequency of long injuries by editing the injury file except by removing entire categories of injuries altogether (if you remove all SEIs that can happen on a collision, for example, that will lower the number of SEIs overall - if the game tries to give an SEI on a collision play, and can't find a collision SEI in the injury file, then no injury will happen). You can, however, easily remove CEIs by setting all the CEI booleans in injuries.txt to '0'.

The best way to control injury frequency is by using the injury frequency settings in Game Setup.

[phightin]

Thanks for the response. So in essence the amount of injuries that are appearing in my game have nothing to do with the file at all only the injury frequency correct? Does anyone use low injury settings out there and can testify to the experience? I'd like to still have some injuries in my game but I'm starting to get sick of seeing at least one guy, always usually a noteable player usually, get finished for the season on a daily basis. I dunno it also seems like the game targets better players too. Something just is really really off about the injury model.

[satchel]

Originally Posted by phightin

Does anyone use low injury settings out there and can testify to the experience?

I'm in a couple of leagues which use the "low" injury setting, and everyone is happy with it. About 50% of the teams will have one player with a serious injury, at any given time.

The injury setting on "normal" actually results in fewer injuries than in real life. So, "low" certainly isn't realistic. In the real world, minor injuries are exceedingly common, especially among pitchers.

But injuries and talent hits are a never-ending source of frustration, to some.

[Raidergoo]

Do your DL's look like this?

MLB Injuries - CBSSports.com

One week in, and the body count for the season is 12.

[phightin]

Made the switch to low injury setting today. I just couldn't deal with literally every day seeing a top player in my league out with an injury and knowing the talent hit that could possibly go along with it. On one hand this kills me because I'm a stickler for realism and want my game to be as modern as possible. I feel that now I'm going to get hit by the other end of the spectrum, ie now there wont be enough injuries. It's just frusturating, but on the other hand the game deals far far far too many season ending injuries to top players and other players in general plus the talent hits that come along with it are far from realistic as well. It's a lose lose situation.

[Raidergoo]

Originally Posted by phightin

It's just frustrating, but on the other hand the game deals far far far too many season ending injuries to top players and other players in general plus the talent hits that come along with it are far from realistic as well.

Like 12 of them since the beginning of Spring Training?

[phightin]

There's two problems. Firstly, i'm fairly sure those dls include guys on the 40 man roster unlike the injury report in Ottp, and also you'll notice most of the injuries are all shorter term. It's true that the game doesn't offer the same amount of injuries that would occur IRL so i agree on that aspect, but the way it distributes them is just way off. Think of it as a ratio. You have all those tons of injuries 78 i counted so far in the real mlb season. now of those 78 12 are season ending which is roughly 15%. I can assure that as season goes on and more 1-2 week injuries 2-3 month etc occur that % will drop probably down to around 5-8%. That means that roughly out of all the injuries that will occur this 2009 mlb season at most around 8% will be season ending. Now here's my game in Ootp it's june and so far there have been 73 injuries that have occured, now of those 73, 25 are season ending and that number will only probably get higher. So that means at the very least for every injury that occurs in my game it has around a 35% chance of being a season ending one. This just doesn't hold true to real life in terms of the percentages. Since the game has lower injury totals it should in turn have the proper percentage of players get season ending ones. So using at most the 15% mark which is very generous, I should have around 11 at most out right now with season ending injuries.

[satchel]

Originally Posted by phightin

...the way it distributes them is just way off. Think of it as a ratio.... That means that roughly out of all the injuries that will occur this 2009 mlb season at most around 8% will be season ending. Now here's my game in Ootp it's june and so far there have been 73 injuries that have occured, now of those 73, 25 are season ending and that number will only probably get higher. So that means at the very least for every injury that occurs in my game it has around a 35% chance of being a season ending one.

I haven't analyzed the numbers from my leagues, but this is a good point. Although 25 season-ending injuries, after two months of play, seems like a lot. How many teams are in your league? Are they based in particularly cold-weather cities?

[RchW]

Originally Posted by phightin

There's two problems. Firstly, i'm fairly sure those dls include guys on the 40 man roster unlike the injury report in Ottp

No. Any player who is injured and placed on the 15 day DL is by definition on the 40 man roster because he is no longer on the 25 man. Anybody promoted to replace him must also be on the 40 man roster. The 60 day DL removes him from the 40 man roster.

It is correct that a player on the 40 man roster, injured, while playing in the minors would not appear on OOTP DL unless one uses the work around that is available.

[phightin]

Originally Posted by satchel

I haven't analyzed the numbers from my leagues, but this is a good point. Although 25 season-ending injuries, after two months of play, seems like a lot. How many teams are in your league? Are they based in particularly cold-weather cities?

I dunno I've had a ton of injuries using the old injury text file and then had switched to your text file and seem to if anything have more now. Is there any possible way the text file with all the additional injuries increases the likelihood of injuries occuring? I know I'm beating dead horse here so I'm sorry if I'm being redundant.

I'm playing in a typical MLB setting with 30 teams etc, its 2012 and the 25 number is since spring training and it includes the CEIs as well. Now in 2 months of the season I've lost my stud SP, my stud young catcher, and Utley for the year. Plus a couple other guys to 3-4 week injuries. I wouldn't complain if I was the only team being affected but its been rampant for my league this whole season. The only part that scares me about turning down the setting to low is that too many guys will have chances to get landmark accomplishments. But I dunno if I see a way around it, guys are dropping like flies and at this rate I wont have much of a league left by the end of the season. Has anyone else ever used a low injury setting over a long period time and can testify their experiences? Thanks for the response guys I appreciate it.

[Curtis]

Originally Posted by phightin

Is there any possible way the text file with all the additional injuries increases the likelihood of injuries occuring?

Has anyone else ever used a low injury setting over a long period time and can testify their experiences?

1) No.

2) I use 'very low', and all I can say about it is that it's the best example of Murphy's Law I've ever seen. It really does cut down on the injuries, but those that occur are almost invariably to the most valuable players on each team, and the more valuable the player the longer the duration of the injury.

I sense a conspiracy.

[satchel]

Originally Posted by phightin

I...had switched to your text file... and seem to if anything have more now. Is there any possible way the text file with all the additional injuries increases the likelihood of injuries occuring?

I really appreciate your trying the file, and I also appreciate the feedback.

As Curtis said, it doesn't affect the frequency of injuries. Only the in-game setting does that.

If you want some more data, here are links to the injury logs for the JL and NPBL online leagues. Both have had injuries set to "low" this past season (in the JL, it's 2004; in the NPBL, it's 2032) and have been using my file. Both of these leagues' seasons are at their tail ends, so you should have plenty of data to figure injuries, relative to time and number of teams, and also data for the ratio of career-enders to non-career-enders. Please feel free to post any resulting numbers here, I'm sure many people would like to see it. Even though the sample size for your own league is small, you could compare it with those.

In my opinion, injuries set to "low" results in too few injuries. But in the league I commish (the JL), everyone has voiced strong opinions in favor of that setting, so we use it.

[phightin]

Thanks Satchel for the data I analyzed the data for the NPBL league and got an interesting result. When looking at the total number of injuries for the league from spring training to the end of the season the total amount of injuries was 276 and of them I determined 20 to be season ending with an additional 10 that could have been as well but it was hard to judge as they occured during the end of the season either way, we'll say the range of SEIs for the league was 20-30 this year. (I included the two CEIs i came across in the SEI total)

Here's the interesting the % of SEIs for the league, using the 20-30 range over 276 was 7%-10%. This means that for every injury that occurred that was the chance it was a SEI. This percentage is actually a lot truer to real life than using the normal setting because while there may be less injuries, it's like i said before, the percentage of players out for the season is accurate for the injuries being handed out. Now to confirm this I'm going to look over philliefevers injuries he posted in the injury mod post to see if the % holds true for a larger number of injuries.

[satchel]

Good work Phightin, thanks for sharing the results.

[injury log]

In OOTP9, there are a few things the game gets very wrong with injuries, and these can't be controlled by modifying the injuries file:

-there are *far* too few short term injuries, no matter what setting you choose. There were 878 such injuries during the 2007 MLB regular season, and OOTP doesn't come close to that number;

-injuries cause far greater talent loss in OOTP than in real life. I looked at each player who had a 60+ day injury in 2007 real life MLB, and analyzed their change in statistical performance from the full season before and after the injury. Converting those stats to OOTP ratings, batters lose on average between 2 and 10 points in each category, on the /250 scale. Batters with leg injuries see a dramatic reduction in stealing attempts, on the order of 40%. Pitchers with serious arm injuries lose 10 points of Movement on average, and 10 points of Stuff (in the case of shoulder injuries) or Control (in the case of elbow injuries). Pitchers with non-arm injuries don't experience performance loss. In general, any injury lowers Endurance, on average, at least measured in BF/G. About 10-15% of pitchers don't return to anything close to their previous level of performance - that is, they suffer crippling talent hits.

Obviously, injuries in OOTP affect players far more drastically than that. There was an outcry on the general forums a year or two ago, with users complaining that players lost Potential for no apparent reason. Many suggested that injury should be the only cause for sudden potential loss, and it was in response to that that OOTP was changed, giving us the current model. That was clearly very misguided, judging by the numbers I've looked at;

-severe batter injuries tend to be far too long (and pitcher injuries are often too short). With the exception of Juan Encarnacion's CEI, the longest batter injury I recorded from the 2007 season was a 9.5 month long injury to Tony Graffanino (torn ACL). There were only ten injuries to batters lasting longer than 5.5 months, including Encarnacion's injury. Batters are almost never injured for 10-13 months in real life, and that happens all the time in OOTP;

-while I need to look at the data to be sure, I expect OOTP injures regular players far too often, relative to part time players. In real life, many players are injured during workouts, or report soreness before a game that turns out to require surgery. In OOTP, injuries almost always happen in-game, which means that guys who play more get injured more. I wouldn't be at all surprised if in real life the correlation between playing time and injury frequency was much laxer than in OOTP.

___________

Incidentally, in my online league which uses the injury file Satchel and I created, with injuries set to 'low', my team finished this past season with a grand total of 12 player days lost to injury - one 5 day injury, one 7 day injury, and nothing else. Injury frequency isn't determined by injuries.txt; it's determined by the settings in Game Setup.

[Curtis]

Originally Posted by injury log

-there are *far* too few short term injuries, no matter what setting you choose. There were 878 such injuries during the 2007 MLB regular season

Read that carefully. That's 32 short term injuries per week, or more than one injury per team per week.

Someone should photocopy that to hand out to the players who complain about too many injuries in OotPB.