Whats the use of current ratings?

[HonusWagner]

Originally Posted by kq76

In real life, managers don't just have stats, they have current ratings too, but these current ratings come from their scouts and can't be totally relied upon, just like OOTP's current ratings with scouts on.

So what I think youre saying is that IRL managers or GMs rely on scouting reports to condense data into soundbites so the GM doesnt have to do the work? But this doesnt seem to describe the relation between scout and current ratings in OOTP as the quality of scout does not affect current ratings. In fact, I can turn off scouts and still ahve the same current ratings.

[kq76]

Originally Posted by HonusWagner

Your point isnt clear -- I understand what potential ratings are. There seems to be some ambiguity concerning what current ratings actually are and do. Some think that they generate stats. You are saying they are merely scout's expectations. So if I change quality of scout, youre saying that current ratings will change accordingly?

Current ratings do cause stats. Great current ratings don't necessarily mean a player will end up with great stats, though, as other things (random or not) are built into the engine as well. If you're trying to decide between a player with good past stats but bad current ratings and a player with the opposite then you should probably pick the latter because the former certainly looks like he's taken a bad hit to his ability or has been playing above himself. Things could swing the other way, of course, but if you're looking for advice on what to bet on that's what I'd do.

I'm not saying current ratings are merely scouts' expectations; the ratings you see with scouts on are how a scout sees the player (andymac is, I guess, technically correct with his last post, but you can call it whatever you want, the way I see it you still have a form of current ratings with scouts on). If you get a better scout you should get ratings that are closer to the truth (i.e. the current ratings). I'm not 100% certain of the following, but I seem to recall something once being said that ratings of scouts themselves are the truth when maybe there should be some fog of war concerning those ratings as well (I don't think we want to judge how good a scout is by looking at his past record). Either way, with scouts on at least you're getting a fog over the current ratings of players which should solve anyone's issue of the game telling you the real ratings. That said, even with scouts off, current ratings won't necessarily translate into equivalent stats because of the other factors built into the engines and that's why I personally don't see much of a problem not using scouts.

[StyxNCa]

Honus, you may as well give it up. You're debating with the fanboys who argue with anyone who has anything negative to say about the game. They seem to believe OOTP is the be all and end all and, of course, theirs is the only opinion that matters and is correct because, after all, the rest of us are stupid. Look in any thread where someone has a problem with the game and these same names are there.

[HonusWagner]

Originally Posted by RchW

It may be primitive. That's not a description I'd use, but it is the current state of the art in Baseball sims.

Can you point to a sim (not limited to Baseball) that does it differently and is recognized as the state of the art in its genre?

Did you read the sentences before I suggested it was primitive.. my comparison with flight sims...? Do you understand why I made that suggestion? Can you imagine a flight sim where the dials and gauges use colour-coded scales from 1 to 10 in place of actual data such as one finds on commercial airliners? It would not be considered a serious sim. Would you want to be a passenger on a plane where the pilot has sim experience where he didnt have to learn to recognize, read and respond to real-life data? It isnt the same, is it?

[kq76]

Originally Posted by HonusWagner

Could you please explain? I both checked and unchecked Use Complete Scouting System and the player ratings didnt change.

I also used the leagues top rated scout and a team trainer in the scouting position and the ratings didnt change - both provided identical ratings.

I don't use scouts so I'm not sure of the specifics, but IIRC you have to sim to a certain point for the ratings to change.

[HonusWagner]

Originally Posted by kq76

Current ratings do cause stats. Great current ratings don't necessarily mean a player will end up with great stats, though, as other things (random or not) are built into the engine as well. If you're trying to decide between a player with good past stats but bad current ratings and a player with the opposite then you should probably pick the latter because the former certainly looks like he's taken a bad hit to his ability or has been playing above himself. Things could swing the other way, of course, but if you're looking for advice on what to bet on that's what I'd do.

I'm not saying current ratings are merely scouts' expectations; the ratings you see with scouts on are how a scout sees the player (andymac is, I guess, technically correct with his last post, but you can call it whatever you want, the way I see it you still have a form of current ratings with scouts on). If you get a better scout you should get ratings that are closer to the truth (i.e. the current ratings). I'm not 100% certain of the following, but I seem to recall something once being said that ratings of scouts themselves are the truth when maybe there should be some fog of war concerning those ratings as well (I don't think we want to judge how good a scout is by looking at his past record). Either way, with scouts on at least you're getting a fog over the current ratings of players which should solve anyone's issue of the game telling you the real ratings. That said, even with scouts off, current ratings won't necessarily translate into equivalent stats because of the other factors built into the engines and that's why I personally don't see much of a problem not using scouts.

No offense, but you seem unsure. As I posted above, there appears to be no correlation between scouting and current ratings. The same current ratings for a plyaer exist whether you have a good scout, a bad scout or no scout at all. It appears tath current ratings are generated by the engine, and they are designed to take the place of number crunching, that is, working with statistical data and the other variables I have already clearly mentioned in this thread.

The philosophy behind successful and useful sims is that they do not do the work for you. They do nothing to make it easier for the user, unlike arcade games which are designed for quick and easy access. You can imagine the current ratings to be whatever you want. I have tested them and they exist to make the game easier for the user - take the place of statistical analysis.

[HonusWagner]

Originally Posted by StyxNCa

Honus, you may as well give it up. You're debating with the fanboys who argue with anyone who has anything negative to say about the game. They seem to believe OOTP is the be all and end all and, of course, theirs is the only opinion that matters and is correct because, after all, the rest of us are stupid. Look in any thread where someone has a problem with the game and these same names are there.

Thats too bad, and am starting to wonder if youre right. That is so disappointing because I think its a pretty good game overall. But there seems to be alot of ambiguity concerning what ratings represent. Do you know if the developers are accessable via this forum?

[RchW]

Originally Posted by HonusWagner

Did you read the sentences before I suggested it was primitive.. my comparison with flight sims...? Do you understand why I made that suggestion? Can you imagine a flight sim where the dials and gauges use colour-coded scales from 1 to 10 in place of actual data such as one finds on commercial airliners? It would not be considered a serious sim. Would you want to be a passenger on a plane where the pilot has sim experience where he didnt have to learn to recognize, read and respond to real-life data? It isnt the same, is it?

Colour coding is cosmetic. I can still read the difference between a 60 rating and a 75 rating. The fact that one is yellow and the other is blue is irrelevant to me.

Can you imagine a flight sim where the dials and gauges use colour-coded scales from 1 to 10 in place of actual data such as one finds on commercial airliners?

No but OOTP doesn't do this. The real data (player results) are presented just like other sports, in real numbers, player stats. You seem to be equating player ratings to real data like the altimeter on a plane shows its current altitude (its result). The comparison is not valid IMO.

[HonusWagner]

Originally Posted by kq76

Current ratings do cause stats. Great current ratings don't necessarily mean a player will end up with great stats, though, as other things (random or not) are built into the engine as well. If you're trying to decide between a player with good past stats but bad current ratings and a player with the opposite then you should probably pick the latter because the former certainly looks like he's taken a bad hit to his ability or has been playing above himself. Things could swing the other way, of course, but if you're looking for advice on what to bet on that's what I'd do.

I'm not saying current ratings are merely scouts' expectations; the ratings you see with scouts on are how a scout sees the player (andymac is, I guess, technically correct with his last post, but you can call it whatever you want, the way I see it you still have a form of current ratings with scouts on). If you get a better scout you should get ratings that are closer to the truth (i.e. the current ratings). I'm not 100% certain of the following, but I seem to recall something once being said that ratings of scouts themselves are the truth when maybe there should be some fog of war concerning those ratings as well (I don't think we want to judge how good a scout is by looking at his past record). Either way, with scouts on at least you're getting a fog over the current ratings of players which should solve anyone's issue of the game telling you the real ratings. That said, even with scouts off, current ratings won't necessarily translate into equivalent stats because of the other factors built into the engines and that's why I personally don't see much of a problem not using scouts.

Ok, to update, I ran the sim longer for both types of scouts and the current ratings data did change slightly, though the change was negligible considering the huge difference in scouting ability. So, just to reconfirm, essentially youre saying that the current ratings reflect scouting opinion and not actual statistical performance.

[satchel]

Originally Posted by HonusWagner

I make a clearly stated and reasonable argument and some guy replies with a condescending 'nevermind'??

That "nm" was because he typed a reply, and then he decided to retract it. I don't think he was saying "this discussion is beneath me." It was more like "I said something, but I've changed my mind, and what I'd written no longer reflects how I feel."

[HonusWagner]

Originally Posted by RchW

Colour coding is cosmetic. I can still read the difference between a 60 rating and a 75 rating. The fact that one is yellow and the other is blue is irrelevant to me.

No but OOTP doesn't do this. The real data (player results) are presented just like other sports, in real numbers, player stats. You seem to be equating player ratings to real data like the altimeter on a plane shows its current altitude (its result). The comparison is not valid IMO.

The colours of the game skins are cosmetic; the colour coding of the ratings chart is functional. It exists for a pragmatic purpose -- to make charts easier to scan.

No offense, but opinions are not really whats important here. I am trying to discover what current ratings represent and how they are calculated for all the reasons I have made pretty clear in this thread.

[HonusWagner]

Originally Posted by satchel

That "nm" was because he typed a reply, and then he decided to retract it. I don't think he was saying "this discussion is beneath me." It was more like "I said something, but I've changed my mind, and what I'd written no longer reflects how I feel."

Perhaps youre right. Im just trying to learn some things here so have no desire for pointless flaming and all the other idiocy that tends to occur in forums. This is a real minor non-issue, but perhaps you might see how a detailed and reasonable post or two inviting intelligent discussion warrants more than the most minimal effort of typing two keystrokes. Whether it was intended or not, it invites misunderstanding.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by HonusWagner

Ok, to update, I ran the sim longer for both types of scouts and the current ratings data did change slightly, though the change was negligible considering the huge difference in scouting ability. So, just to reconfirm, essentially youre saying that the current ratings reflect scouting opinion and not actual statistical performance.

Since I don't use scouts my thought is that current ratings reflect a players grade in the pool of players. Older versions of the game used ABCD ratings, so you could equate that on a 5 point scale as 5=A and 1=E. An average player would be showing 3's in key ratings. The key point is that ratings are relative to the pool of talent available and the expected statistical output (league totals).

At this point I'm probably swimming in deeper math water than is good for me.

[Eckstein 4 Prez]

Honus, it seems to me that all would agree that the game engine itself needs the "current ratings" in order to generate its results. Your belief obviously is that those "current ratings" should remain invisible to the player, and that only stats should be used. My understanding is that the game supports this method of play. So why not use it and not worry about what other people are doing?

Don't get me wrong; I think your argument has merit, especially as OOTP continues to get better at modeling player careers and in-game events. (Personally, I play my solo leagues in "god mode," so I don't really have a dog in this fight.) I guess I'm just trying to understand how the game would be different if you got what you wanted here. Would the option to use the "current ratings" be disabled? If so, it seems like you're doing a disservice to those who'd like to use it without gaining anything in your own game.

Feel free to enlighten me if I'm missing something here.

[lt2cents]

I suspect that in 20 years we will consider this generation of baseball player modeling to be primitive. The player ratings are a simplifying shorthand to describe player ability. That it is visible or not depends on whether you want to interpret it as a summary of the opinions of scouts and coaches. You can turn it off and base your lineup decisions only on stats and scout commentary without the numeric ratings.

For me this thread is an expression of a frustration with the primitiveness of the current numeric player ratings. It is a frustration I share and imagine a baseball sim with a much more sophisticated player model, one which does not put numbers on player ability. We don't all walk around with ratings on 1 to 10 scale on our foreheads of our ability as students, parents, workers, managers. Baseball players are not a visible bag of numeric ratings.

As OOTP has matured in getting its framework going it may be approaching the time when it would be in order to consider a new modeling of baseball players. But the programming would be a huge task and for the OOTP developers whether they would want to take on another multi year development effort to move to the next generation of model is unknown.

There is one serious drawback to a next generation model that does away with the simplifying aspects of the numeric ratings. That is the greatly added complication of abstracting real life players into their virtual versions using more advanced modeling. As there are many players of OOTP who demand current year rosters they have to be satisfied to get results that resemble real life performance.

The new model would work really well for fictional setups. You do not have the burden of expectation of producing a facsimile of a real life player. But you have the great advantage of creating a very good look and feel resemblance to real life where you do not have those numbers painted across someone's face.

Whether it is from the OOTP crew or somewhere else that the next generation model comes from is yet to be determined. But a game in which each pitch and swing are modeled on player's physiological ability, psychological state, and physics calculated results of bat meeting ball will definitely not be exposing all those numbers on the screen. The reason we don't have it yet is that it would easily require more than is currently used in producing the cockpit readings of that Cessna or Boeing.

[CecilCooper]

I think one thing that a lot of people are missing is in this game you don't get the day to day interaction with your players that you get IRL.

In spring training in OOTP land you don't get to see, "Wow, player X looks like he aged 10 years in the offseason." "Pitcher Y's control is all over the place right now, but his velocity seems to be there and he has good movement on his pitches." In real-life, going on past statistics does no good, when compared to what you see in real-time with your own eyes. Granted, eventually the statistics would let you know this, however in real life a manager may not have ever let it get that far.

That in my mind, is the reason that I can see the need for some measure of current ratings.

[StyxNCa]

Originally Posted by HonusWagner

Thats too bad, and am starting to wonder if youre right. That is so disappointing because I think its a pretty good game overall. But there seems to be alot of ambiguity concerning what ratings represent. Do you know if the developers are accessable via this forum?

Well they do read the forums and reply now and then though I doubt they do it much right now since they are trying to finish up the new version. You can click on Markus name and send him a private message.

[PhillieFever]

The reason the game uses ratings IMO,is to compare one player against another,not for statistical purposes.In real life,scouts watch players and then give them a rating,20-80 in different categories this is a fact.Since this is something that obviously can't be done in the parameters of a "video game" which this unmistakably is,its done for you.I don't see the problem.As for your flight sim comparison,your comparing the operation of a machine to the judging of human beings,its just not comparable.

[Dr. P.R. Park III]

Honus,
Please log off Dictionary and Thesaurus.com, for your pretentious rants and floundering statements are confusing me.

[ashantewarrier]

Originally Posted by dr. P.r. Park iii

honus,
please log off dictionary and thesaurus.com, for your pretentious rants and floundering statements are confusing me.

lol!