Whats the use of current ratings?

[HonusWagner]

I dont think OOTP really understands itself.

Whats the point for current ratings? I thought thats what stats are for.

In life (including baseball), there is no such thing as ¨current¨. Another word for current is ¨now¨. THere is no such thing as now. The present - now - is simply the process of the future becoming the past. Now doesnt exist. So, in baseball parlance, all you know about a player is what he has done and what his potential may be -- put another way, all you know is his past record, represented by stats, and someones opinion of what he may do. NOtice there is no ¨current¨. There is no ¨now¨.

With this fundamental given, why the hell does OOTP have the game setup to favour current ratings over potential ratings? Why have current rating at all? WHen you have current ratings, you dont need stats do you. Why would you need to use stats to figure out how a player is living up to his potential when all you need to do is consult the magical current ratings chart, and development ratings chart. That makes all your decisions for you. Hell, if youre that lazy-minded, OOTP makes it even easier so all yoiu have to do is look at colour patterns - blues and greens are best.

So much for the managerial experience.

[andymac]

You can hide the current ratings if you do not want to use them.

[Bluenoser]

Turn off ratings and play with stats only. Your problem will be solved.

[HonusWagner]

Originally Posted by andymac

You can hide the current ratings if you do not want to use them.

Thanks. I know.

Allow me to elucidate.

1. OOTP seems to market itself as a serious sim, not an arcade game. To waste so much resources and coding on a strictly arcade-game feature as current ratings gives the overall game a very arcade philosophy.

2. Since virtually all of the online game sites i checked out use current ratings I can only conservatively assume that most (if not virtually all) of the so-call hardcore baseball stats freaks use current ratings. THis assumption is further supported by the apparent lack of puzzlement over the same question. News flash: if you consider yourself a baseball stats guru yet consult current ratings you are delusional.

3. The game is obviously biased towards using current ratings. Potential ratings are narrowly reduced to immediate batting and pitching details. We dont know potential for fielding (oops!) or other secondary batting and pitching attributes, including baserunning and base stealing potential (oops! again).

4. IRL, a scout or manager doesnt consult a current ratings chart. Thats why they have statistics! Statistics are the only way to measure how a player is measuring up to his suggested potential. Theres nothing absolute like god saying "this player is a twelve in making contact!".

5. I realize IRL there are other factors that are not represented in OOTP (one example is the impression made on a managers intution based on observation of performance). Therefore, perhaps some use of the development chart is warranted as it may be possible that, IRL, a player may make the impression of working hard and improving skills but it may not immediately translate to game stats. Use of development progression or regression would act as the eyes and intution of coaches and scouts.

6. Use of scouts assessment of potential, historical record indicating how a player is living up to that potential, and coach's assessmentof skill development are all that a manager IRL has to go on. These are all relative (even the stats) and are open to interpretation. They are not absolutes like a fantasy called current ratings.

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by honuswagner

thanks. I know.

Allow me to elucidate.

1. Ootp seems to market itself as a serious sim, not an arcade game. To waste so much resources and coding on a strictly arcade-game feature as current ratings gives the overall game a very arcade philosophy.

2. Since virtually all of the online game sites i checked out use current ratings i can only conservatively assume that most (if not virtually all) of the so-call hardcore baseball stats freaks use current ratings. This assumption is further supported by the apparent lack of puzzlement over the same question. News flash: If you consider yourself a baseball stats guru yet consult current ratings you are delusional.

3. The game is obviously biased towards using current ratings. Potential ratings are narrowly reduced to immediate batting and pitching details. We dont know potential for fielding (oops!) or other secondary batting and pitching attributes, including baserunning and base stealing potential (oops! Again).

4. Irl, a scout or manager doesnt consult a current ratings chart. Thats why they have statistics! Statistics are the only way to measure how a player is measuring up to his suggested potential. Theres nothing absolute like god saying "this player is a twelve in making contact!".

5. I realize irl there are other factors that are not represented in ootp (one example is the impression made on a managers intution based on observation of performance). Therefore, perhaps some use of the development chart is warranted as it may be possible that, irl, a player may make the impression of working hard and improving skills but it may not immediately translate to game stats. Use of development progression or regression would act as the eyes and intution of coaches and scouts.

6. Use of scouts assessment of potential, historical record indicating how a player is living up to that potential, and coach's assessmentof skill development are all that a manager irl has to go on. These are all relative (even the stats) and are open to interpretation. They are not absolutes like a fantasy called current ratings.

nm

[HonusWagner]

Originally Posted by BruceM

nm

Meaning, the discussion is beneath you.

[RchW]

Who pissed in your cornflakes?


The best evidence I can give you for the usefulness of current ratings is one Mark Teixeira of the NY Yankees. Why does Joe Girardi send him out every day with a 0.182 average? Aside from the money and his boss, it is that Joe knows Teixeira is a 0.290++ hitter with power. In OOTP terms Teixeira is a 70 contact 60-70 power hitter with a decent eye.

Tell the truth. Do you feel so strongly about the uselessness of current rating that you would go into a playoff series and replace all of your 60-80+ contact hitters with backups who have ratings from 45-60? Re-calculate for whatever ratings scale you use.

I know you can have guy in hot streaks but could you justify it to the virtual press?

Teixeira's current stats
2009 29 NYY AL 21 99 77 12 14 3 0 3 10 0 0 19 13 .182 .354 .338 .691 81 26 1 2 0 1 2 *3

[HonusWagner]

Originally Posted by RchW

Who pissed in your cornflakes?

I dont understand? I sound harsh? I make a clearly stated and reasonable argument and some guy replies with a condescending 'nevermind'??

Originally Posted by RchW

The best evidence I can give you for the usefulness of current ratings is one Mark Teixeira of the NY Yankees. Why does Joe Girardi send him out every day with a 0.182 average? Aside from the money and his boss, it is that Joe knows Teixeira is a 0.290++ hitter with power. In OOTP terms Teixeira is a 70 contact 60-70 power hitter with a decent eye.

No, Girardi sends him out because of T's reputation, which has been established year after year. Which, if Gerardi should ever hit his head, lose his memory, and then have to relearn everything including his job (god forebid), he could look at T's career stats and compare to his current season stats, and likely still make the same decision.

Originally Posted by RchW

Tell the truth. Do you feel so strongly about the uselessness of current rating that you would go into a playoff series and replace all of your 60-80+ contact hitters with backups who have ratings from 45-60? Re-calculate for whatever ratings scale you use.

No, I wouldnt refer to ratings at all. I would refer to stats. I would refer to my knowledge of that player. I would make a decision based on what I felt he was likely to do.

Think of it this way: current ratings make stats redundant. So invert that equation: stats make current ratings redundant.

Teixeira's current stats
2009 29 NYY AL 21 99 77 12 14 3 0 3 10 0 0 19 13 .182 .354 .338 .691 81 26 1 2 0 1 2 *3[/QUOTE]

[RchW]

Originally Posted by HonusWagner

I dont understand? I sound harsh? I make a clearly stated and reasonable argument and some guy replies with a condescending 'nevermind'??




No, Girardi sends him out because of T's reputation, which has been established year after year. Which, if Gerardi should ever hit his head, lose his memory, and then have to relearn everything including his job (god forebid), he could look at T's career stats and compare to his current season stats, and likely still make the same decision.



No, I wouldnt refer to ratings at all. I would refer to stats. I would refer to my knowledge of that player. I would make a decision based on what I felt he was likely to do.

Think of it this way: current ratings make stats redundant. So invert that equation: stats make current ratings redundant.

Teixeira's current stats
2009 29 NYY AL 21 99 77 12 14 3 0 3 10 0 0 19 13 .182 .354 .338 .691 81 26 1 2 0 1 2 *3

[/QUOTE]

Well I disagree. Real life disagrees too. If I were going into a world series with a long term good hitter who was hitting 0.182 vs a 0.220 backup who just happened to be hitting 0.320, I'd still start the big guy, the guy with the ratings.

I haven't checked but I doubt if there are more than one or two situations where a bona fide star player was sat down for an entire playoff series based on stats.

[HonusWagner]

Well I disagree. Real life disagrees too. If I were going into a world series with a long term good hitter who was hitting 0.182 vs a 0.220 backup who just happened to be hitting 0.320, I'd still start the big guy, the guy with the ratings.
[/QUOTE]

You disagree with what? This has nothing to do with what someone ought to do or not do. It has to do with what you use in OOTP to make your decisions. Why would you refer to "the ratings"? Why couldnt you just refer to the stats? Youre saying hte same thing. I guess you dont really want a more immersive experience where you attempt to make your decision-making process most life-like. You prefer to play an arcade type of game that makes decisions easier (colour-coded, game-generated ratings). And thats ok, nothing wrong with that.

I'll repeat from my previous post:

current ratings make stats redundant. Therefore, stats make current ratings redundant.

[kq76]

Stats don't cause stats, ratings cause stats.

If you only want to go by stats, that's fine, it's your copy of the game, but what do you do if:

-a player has no track record of past stats?
-you have a player with a good past record, but he's getting to that age where many players fall of a cliff while some don't?
-a player with a good past record suffers a major injury?
-a player just had an extraordinary (for him) good or bad season, do you rely on the latest season or the last few?
-you acquire a player from another league that tends to be weak in something that could skew that players ability to perform in your league?

I submit that without ratings you're really just blindly swinging a stick in the dark in a lot of situations.

If you think it's more fun that way, though, then more power to you. We can't argue with that.

[RchW]

• Originally Posted by HonusWagner

  Well I disagree. Real life disagrees too. If I were going into a world series with a long term good hitter who was hitting 0.182 vs a 0.220 backup who just happened to be hitting 0.320, I'd still start the big guy, the guy with the ratings.

Originally Posted by HonusWagner

You disagree with what? This has nothing to do with what someone ought to do or not do. It has to do with what you use in OOTP to make your decisions. Why would you refer to "the ratings"? Why couldnt you just refer to the stats? Youre saying hte same thing. I guess you dont really want a more immersive experience where you attempt to make your decision-making process most life-like. You prefer to play an arcade type of game that makes decisions easier (colour-coded, game-generated ratings). And thats ok, nothing wrong with that.
I'll repeat from my previous post:

current ratings make stats redundant. Therefore, stats make current ratings redundant.

Don't be silly. I make the same decision Girardi makes. I know Teixeira is very likely to hit 0.275-0.310 for me over a whole season. I start him because I "know" his current ratings (ie my eyes tell me, and the scouts etc., he can hit) and his stats over time.

If a player was to go 2 seasons with seriously bad stats, then one would question their own eyes and stats may become the deciding factor. However it seems obvious that if a formerly good hitter suddenly became unable to hit and this occurred over 1 or 2 seasons then you would start to think that his ability (ratings) had declined.

Can you give a better explanation?

[andymac]

How would you expect the game engine to create stats without current ratings?

[HonusWagner]

Originally Posted by kq76

Stats don't cause stats, ratings cause stats.

If you only want to go by stats, that's fine, it's your copy of the game, but what do you do if:

-a player has no track record of past stats?
-you have a player with a good past record, but he's getting to that age where many players fall of a cliff while some don't?
-a player with a good past record suffers a major injury?
-a player just had an extraordinary (for him) good or bad season, do you rely on the latest season or the last few?
-you acquire a player from another league that tends to be weak in something that could skew that players ability to perform in your league?

This is a sim. So, what do they do IRL? Why doesnt a supposed 'sim' do that? IRL they dont have absolutes like current ratings charts. That is what makes it fun: no absolutes. ANother thing that makes it fun, for those inclined, is identifying and utilizng stats. Current ratings charts precludes the need for stats and dealing with relatives.

potential ratings = scouts opinion or expectations
stats = how a player is living up to expectations
development ratings = coach's opinion of how players skills are progressing or regressing
(these seem to provide a good translation from RL to OOTP)

So, to answer your question, based on the criteria above:

-a player has no track record of past stats?
either sim a history for stats before starting or relying on scouting. IRL, GMs rely strongly on scouting reports, why should OOTP be different?

-you have a player with a good past record, but he's getting to that age where many players fall of a cliff while some don't?
I can tell how close he is to reaching his potential by comparing trend in stats to potential ratings. Iow, if the trend is the former moving away from latter, then he is declining. I would also use coach's opinion (development ratings) to confirm if his abilities seem to be improving or declining. There, tell me how current ratings are necssary. In fact, I can use this response to the rest of your scenarios.

The mark of a worthy sim is of course its ability to present RL data. So, a flight sim is not going to use gauges with proprietary ratings in place of instrumental data; its going to use instrumental data as it would be if the situation were real. Proprietary ratings are the game-makers way of making the sim easier. I mean, cmon -- colour-coded ratings system? Look for either blue or green numbers, stay away from red, use orange if necessary. HOw is that like real life. Its not a sim. This is just observation.

[HonusWagner]

The way others are approaching this quesiton is asking questions with the game as it is as reference. Why?

ratings generate stats? why is this a problem?

To avoid all the head scratching, all the game has to do is provide potential ratings for everything. End of discussion. Then I can hide the current ratings (like you can do now) and just go by potential ratings, stats, scouting reports, and coach's reports. Done. It could be done overnight, coding wise. The big disappointment is that it isnt even thought of. I had hoped this would be more of a sim experience. As a data-sim it is very primitive because it emphasizes ratings whcih is basically a way for the engine to think for you. Wiht all the data that could be available decision-making comes as easy as looking at colour-coded pre-generated current ratings. As I said, it would be so easy to accomodate those looking for a real sim experience.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by HonusWagner

The way others are approaching this quesiton is asking questions with the game as it is as reference. Why?

ratings generate stats? why is this a problem?

To avoid all the head scratching, all the game has to do is provide potential ratings for everything. End of discussion. Then I can hide the current ratings (like you can do now) and just go by potential ratings, stats, scouting reports, and coach's reports. Done. It could be done overnight, coding wise. The big disappointment is that it isnt even thought of. I had hoped this would be more of a sim experience. As a data-sim it is very primitive.

It may be primitive. That's not a description I'd use, but it is the current state of the art in Baseball sims.

Can you point to a sim (not limited to Baseball) that does it differently and is recognized as the state of the art in its genre?

[kq76]

Originally Posted by HonusWagner

potential ratings = scouts opinion or expectations

You're mistaken here. What equals "scouts opinion or expectations" is current ratings with scouts enabled. Potential ratings is about what might happen to this player's current ratings a few years down the road. It has nothing to do with scouts and, IMO at least, it shouldn't be looked at as what is expected of the player either. That's what you want to be playing with, though, scouts enabled.

In real life, managers don't just have stats, they have current ratings too, but these current ratings come from their scouts and can't be totally relied upon, just like OOTP's current ratings with scouts on. That way you can focus on the stats if you want, but for those situations that call for a closer look you can look at scout ratings.

[andymac]

If you play with scouts on, you are not seeing a players' current ratings, you are seeing the ratings your scouts give them. So, you are using scouting reports.

[HonusWagner]

Originally Posted by kq76

You're mistaken here. What equals "scouts opinion or expectations" is current ratings with scouts enabled. Potential ratings is about what might happen to this player's current ratings a few years down the road. It has nothing to do with scouts and, IMO at least, it shouldn't be looked at as what is expected of the player either. That's what you want to be playing with, though, scouts enabled.

Your point isnt clear -- I understand what potential ratings are. There seems to be some ambiguity concerning what current ratings actually are and do. Some think that they generate stats. You are saying they are merely scout's expectations. So if I change quality of scout, youre saying that current ratings will change accordingly?

In real life, managers don't just have stats, they have current ratings too, but these current ratings come from their scouts and can't be totally relied upon, just like OOTP's current ratings with scouts on. That way you can focus on the stats if you want, but for those situations that call for a closer look you can look at scout ratings.

[HonusWagner]

Originally Posted by andymac

If you play with scouts on, you are not seeing a players' current ratings, you are seeing the ratings your scouts give them. So, you are using scouting reports.

Could you please explain? I both checked and unchecked Use Complete Scouting System and the player ratings didnt change.

I also used the leagues top rated scout and a team trainer in the scouting position and the ratings didnt change - both provided identical ratings.