Home | Webstore
Latest News: - OOTP 15: Update #6 Released! - OOTP 15 Released! - FHM 2014: Version 1.6.19 Available! - iOOTP Baseball 2014 for iOS Available NOW! - Beyond the Sideline Football Announced! - Title Bout Championship Boxing 2.5 released!

OOTP 15 Released - Buy Now!

  

Go Back   OOTP Developments Forums > Earlier versions of Out of the Park Baseball > Earlier versions of OOTP: General Discussions

Earlier versions of OOTP: General Discussions General chat about the game...

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 06-07-2009, 01:00 PM   #1 (permalink)
Minors (Rookie Ball)
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 36
Thanks: 14
Thanked 24x in 14 posts
Free Agent Compensation

I'm wondering if anyone knows exactly how the free agent compensation system in OOTP X works. The documentation doesn't cover it very well, and it appears to actually contradict what actually happens in the game. For example, the documentation (OOTP Baseball Manual - Free Agency) states that a Type A free agent will net a first round supplemental pick, while a Type B will net a second round supplemental pick (if I'm even interpreting that correctly?). However, when offering arbitration and actually signing free agents, the game takes the first round draft pick of the originating team and a supplemental round pick for Type A agents, and only a supplemental pick for Type B free agents (a la real life).

At any rate, my questions are as follows. What, exactly, determines if a player is a Type A or Type B free agent? Are there formulas that do calculations, similar to the Elias ratings in real life? If so, what are these formulas?

At what point in the season can free agents of Type A and Type B be picked up where no free agent compensation is offered?

If a team picks up two Type A free agents, which team gets the top draft pick available and which team gets the latter pick? Is it strictly determined by which one signs first, or is it determined based on the rankings that determine free agent types in the first place?

Thanks in advance to anyone who can help.
Jontler is offline   Reply With Quote
Thank you for this post:
TGH-Adfabre (02-13-2010)
Old 06-07-2009, 01:07 PM   #2 (permalink)
All Star Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mass.
Posts: 1,963
Thanks: 15
Thanked 136x in 94 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jontler View Post
I'm wondering if anyone knows exactly how the free agent compensation system in OOTP X works. The documentation doesn't cover it very well, and it appears to actually contradict what actually happens in the game. For example, the documentation (OOTP Baseball Manual - Free Agency) states that a Type A free agent will net a first round supplemental pick, while a Type B will net a second round supplemental pick (if I'm even interpreting that correctly?). However, when offering arbitration and actually signing free agents, the game takes the first round draft pick of the originating team and a supplemental round pick for Type A agents, and only a supplemental pick for Type B free agents (a la real life).

At any rate, my questions are as follows. What, exactly, determines if a player is a Type A or Type B free agent? Are there formulas that do calculations, similar to the Elias ratings in real life? If so, what are these formulas?

At what point in the season can free agents of Type A and Type B be picked up where no free agent compensation is offered?

If a team picks up two Type A free agents, which team gets the top draft pick available and which team gets the latter pick? Is it strictly determined by which one signs first, or is it determined based on the rankings that determine free agent types in the first place?

Thanks in advance to anyone who can help.

Note, the following is based on my testing of this and I might be incorrect on parts of this. (If I am, I hope someone corrects the parts that are wrong).

Type A free agent = The team losing the free agent gets the other team's first round pick as well as a sandwich round pick. (With the exception of if the first round pick is in the top half of the draft, in which case they would get a second round pick instead).

Type B free agent = sandwich round pick only.

There is a formula similar to the Elias one but probably not exactly the same that does compute who the top free agents at each position are in order to rank the Type A or B classifications. I am not aware of anywhere that the actual formula for this has been announced however.


If two Type As are signed by the same team, what should happen is the higher ranked Type A free agent based on the scoring system should reward the first round pick, while the other gets a second round pick. I don't think that works correctly currently, and it is indeed currently based off of which one signs first in OOTP. I believe there is a bug logged for that to be fixed in a patch I hope.

As for when you can sign a free agent without having to pay compensation, I am afraid that I do not have an answer for that one.
__________________
- Front Office Offseason League. (Fast Paced OOTP-X and OOTP11 leagues, sims one season every week)
Alan T is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2009, 01:11 PM   #3 (permalink)
Minors (Rookie Ball)
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 36
Thanks: 14
Thanked 24x in 14 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan T View Post
There is a formula similar to the Elias one but probably not exactly the same that does compute who the top free agents at each position are in order to rank the Type A or B classifications. I am not aware of anywhere that the actual formula for this has been announced however.
The Elias ratings rank all players at various positions against each other based on their previous two years of statistics (albeit bad ones), and then those free agents that happen to fall in the top 20 percent of all players in their categories are ranked Type A, while the second 20 percent are ranked Type B.

Are you saying that OOTP runs calculations only on pending free agents, and then compares them? That is, does OOTP guarantee that there must be Type A and Type B free agents?
Jontler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2009, 01:14 PM   #4 (permalink)
All Star Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mass.
Posts: 1,963
Thanks: 15
Thanked 136x in 94 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jontler View Post
The Elias ratings rank all players at various positions against each other based on their previous two years of statistics (albeit bad ones), and then those free agents that happen to fall in the top 20 percent of all players in their categories are ranked Type A, while the second 20 percent are ranked Type B.

Are you saying that OOTP runs calculations only on pending free agents, and then compares them? That is, does OOTP guarantee that there must be Type A and Type B free agents?

No sorry, I wasn't very clear on that part as I was trying to briefly answer all of your questions.

OOTP does appear to rank all players at the position (free agent or not) based on more than one year (if it also factors in ratings or how many years of stats I'm not sure.. it might be based on your AI evaluation settings).

So you are not sure to get Type A or Type B free agents that reach free agency, but usually you will at least see some of both. You are more likely to see Type A free agents than Type B free agents in number for similar reasons as you see in the MLB.
__________________
- Front Office Offseason League. (Fast Paced OOTP-X and OOTP11 leagues, sims one season every week)
Alan T is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2009, 01:16 PM   #5 (permalink)
Minors (Rookie Ball)
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 36
Thanks: 14
Thanked 24x in 14 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan T View Post
No sorry, I wasn't very clear on that part as I was trying to briefly answer all of your questions.

OOTP does appear to rank all players at the position (free agent or not) based on more than one year (if it also factors in ratings or how many years of stats I'm not sure.. it might be based on your AI evaluation settings).

So you are not sure to get Type A or Type B free agents that reach free agency, but usually you will at least see some of both. You are more likely to see Type A free agents than Type B free agents in number for similar reasons as you see in the MLB.
Ok, good. That's what I suspected, I just wanted to make sure I got that right rather than make assumptions.

Hopefully someone "in the know" can provide answers to my other questions.
Jontler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2009, 03:08 PM   #6 (permalink)
Hall Of Famer
 
TribeFanInNC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,986
Thanks: 200
Thanked 524x in 370 posts
I did a lot of work on this section in beta, so I'll try to help as best as I can:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jontler View Post
I'm wondering if anyone knows exactly how the free agent compensation system in OOTP X works. The documentation doesn't cover it very well, and it appears to actually contradict what actually happens in the game. For example, the documentation (OOTP Baseball Manual - Free Agency) states that a Type A free agent will net a first round supplemental pick, while a Type B will net a second round supplemental pick (if I'm even interpreting that correctly?). However, when offering arbitration and actually signing free agents, the game takes the first round draft pick of the originating team and a supplemental round pick for Type A agents, and only a supplemental pick for Type B free agents (a la real life).
I haven't looked at the manual; it may not be quite right. Sorry if it is not. When we get it 100% squared away, we'll revisit it.

To clarify what really happens (Alan has already summarized some of this), compensation for a Type A free agent is the first round pick from the signee's new team + a pick in the supplemental round which happens between the first and second round of the draft. Compensation for a Type B FA is a pick in the supplemental round. As mentioned, the top half of the first round is protected; the pick defaults to the second round in this scenario. Also, the original team must offer arbitration to the FA to receive compensation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jontler View Post
At any rate, my questions are as follows. What, exactly, determines if a player is a Type A or Type B free agent? Are there formulas that do calculations, similar to the Elias ratings in real life? If so, what are these formulas?
Yes, there is a formula and the exact formula hasn't been released. I'm told it is similar but not exactly the same as the Elias formula used in MLB. Players are ranked among their peers and the top tier is Type A and the second tier is Type B. I think the tiers are roughly 20% each.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jontler View Post
At what point in the season can free agents of Type A and Type B be picked up where no free agent compensation is offered?
To my knowledge, there is no cutoff and compensation is always awarded. I believe this is true in real life too, but if not let me know and I'll see if Markus will add one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jontler View Post
If a team picks up two Type A free agents, which team gets the top draft pick available and which team gets the latter pick? Is it strictly determined by which one signs first, or is it determined based on the rankings that determine free agent types in the first place?

Thanks in advance to anyone who can help.
Right now in the first release, FA compensation picks are assigned in the order that the players are signed if multiple Type A players are signed by a team. We've made Markus aware that this is not how MLB works.

We are still looking to address a couple issues in FA compensation in patches, so the final product may change a little still.
__________________
PEBA - Duluth Warriors

Last edited by TribeFanInNC; 06-07-2009 at 03:10 PM.
TribeFanInNC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2009, 03:15 PM   #7 (permalink)
Hall Of Famer
 
Afino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 3,272
Blog Entries: 2
Thanks: 723
Thanked 476x in 281 posts
Alright, I have to ask this then.

In leagues where trading picks is turned on, what happens when a team trades its 1st round pick then owes a 1st rounder in compensation? Do they just lose the first pick they have?
__________________
GUBA: Moscow Enforcers

Afino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2009, 03:29 PM   #8 (permalink)
Hall Of Famer
 
TribeFanInNC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,986
Thanks: 200
Thanked 524x in 370 posts
Basically, in any instance where your pick is not available, the next round's pick is awarded. In your scenario where the first round pick is traded away, the team's second round pick is awarded instead.

Teams get screwed like this IRL too, though the screwing formula is different (it goes by Elias rating, not order of signing).
__________________
PEBA - Duluth Warriors
TribeFanInNC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2009, 03:34 PM   #9 (permalink)
Minors (Rookie Ball)
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 36
Thanks: 14
Thanked 24x in 14 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by TribeFanInNC View Post
Basically, in any instance where your pick is not available, the next round's pick is awarded. In your scenario where the first round pick is traded away, the team's second round pick is awarded instead.

Teams get screwed like this IRL too, though the screwing formula is different (it goes by Elias rating, not order of signing).
In real life, it's a non-factor since draft picks cannot be traded.

My online league is discussing implementing free agent compensation, and I've awarded myself the task of examining OOTP X to see if it's up to the challenge. I know that in the past it was not.

Our implementation would hinge on disabling draft pick trading.

I wonder - is there any chance that someone in-the-know would release the formulas used to calculate free agent type? I'd love to do an analysis and test of my own.
Jontler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2009, 03:42 PM   #10 (permalink)
All Star Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mass.
Posts: 1,963
Thanks: 15
Thanked 136x in 94 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jontler View Post

I wonder - is there any chance that someone in-the-know would release the formulas used to calculate free agent type? I'd love to do an analysis and test of my own.
As far as I'm aware, only Markus knows what that formula is currently. Just from testing, I've been able to predict somewhat where the lines will be drawn pretty easily though.

Remember if you have stars turned on for overall/potential ratings and have it set to be based on others at the same position, those seem to be pretty predictive of what the top x% of players at that position will be according to OOTPX. So if you have a 5 star 2B that is going to be hitting free agency, my guess is nine times out of ten (or maybe ten times out of ten even), he'll end up as type A.

I'm in the same boat as you as far as the ootpx online league I run will be implementing free agency compensation at least as a trial. If we end up not liking how it works, we'll just turn it off. So far I've not found too many issues with it other than the issue where picks are awarded based on the order of signing vs which free agent is actually the better player.
__________________
- Front Office Offseason League. (Fast Paced OOTP-X and OOTP11 leagues, sims one season every week)
Alan T is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2009, 03:44 PM   #11 (permalink)
Hall Of Famer
 
Afino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 3,272
Blog Entries: 2
Thanks: 723
Thanked 476x in 281 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jontler View Post
My online league is discussing implementing free agent compensation, and I've awarded myself the task of examining OOTP X to see if it's up to the challenge.
There was an owner in our league that was a member of the beta team and thouroughly tested the FA compensation (because we want to use the in-game compensation too), and he confirmed that it works like it should.*



* - no, he didn't tell us anything while the game was still in beta. The last thing I'd want to do is get that person in trouble for not following the NDA.
__________________
GUBA: Moscow Enforcers

Afino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2009, 08:03 PM   #12 (permalink)
Minors (Single A)
 
GoBraves241's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 55
Thanks: 4
Thanked 1x in 1 post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jontler View Post
Thanks in advance to anyone who can help.
Sorry, I can't help you.
__________________
Ryan
GoBraves241 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2009, 11:34 PM   #13 (permalink)
Hall Of Famer
 
TribeFanInNC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,986
Thanks: 200
Thanked 524x in 370 posts
I would support using it in an online league. I think it works pretty good and the types are assigned pretty well. Just know that it does not work exactly like MLB, but mirrors the intent.
__________________
PEBA - Duluth Warriors
TribeFanInNC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2009, 11:38 PM   #14 (permalink)
Hall Of Famer
 
TribeFanInNC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,986
Thanks: 200
Thanked 524x in 370 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jontler View Post
In real life, it's a non-factor since draft picks cannot be traded.
Right, but there are still multiple Type A that are signed by one team where the bumping occurs. Think Sabathia and Teixeira from this year. I wasn't clear what I meant.
__________________
PEBA - Duluth Warriors
TribeFanInNC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2009, 12:36 PM   #15 (permalink)
Minors (Double A)
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 147
Thanks: 1
Thanked 0x in 0 posts
Is the type-A and type-B status set before the season begins or does that season's statistics play a factor in determining what it will be?
thickman1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2009, 02:27 PM   #16 (permalink)
Hall Of Famer
 
TribeFanInNC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,986
Thanks: 200
Thanked 524x in 370 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by thickman1 View Post
Is the type-A and type-B status set before the season begins or does that season's statistics play a factor in determining what it will be?
In real life, it is set after the season ends and remains static throughout the FA signing season. It includes stats from the season that just finished and I believe the season before as well.

In OOTP, it never stays static and is constantly changing, which leads to some issues. It doesn't change a lot, but enough to be a little annoying. I think a bug has been logged to keep the list static throughout the signing period. We'll see if it gets fixed or not. I believe it also takes two years of stats into account, though I don't know that Markus has ever officially confirmed that.
__________________
PEBA - Duluth Warriors
TribeFanInNC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2009, 04:42 PM   #17 (permalink)
Minors (Double A)
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 175
Thanks: 72
Thanked 19x in 12 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jontler View Post
At what point in the season can free agents of Type A and Type B be picked up where no free agent compensation is offered?
According to the comments in this story about Ben Sheets, May 1st was the cutoff date this year but I'm not sure if it is always May 1st or if its just a certain number of days before that years June draft. Basically, compensation doesn't carry over beyond the year the player was a free agent and is only available in the upcoming draft.

Ben Sheets Sighting: MLB Rumors - MLBTradeRumors.com
William Satterwhite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2009, 04:33 PM   #18 (permalink)
Minors (Triple A)
 
snnort's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 272
Thanks: 16
Thanked 11x in 11 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jontler View Post
At what point in the season can free agents of Type A and Type B be picked up where no free agent compensation is offered
Quote:
Originally Posted by William Satterwhite View Post
According to the comments in this story about Ben Sheets, May 1st was the cutoff date this year but I'm not sure if it is always May 1st or if its just a certain number of days before that years June draft. Basically, compensation doesn't carry over beyond the year the player was a free agent and is only available in the upcoming draft.
Here entails the issue:

Many leagues use Utilities like say Getch's OOTP:OU or StatsLab and make use of the AMMY DRAFT portion of those utilities. Around opening day the list of available Ammy Draft players is revealed and each human GM uses this list to scout players, as the Ammy Draft is run outside of the OOTP X engine from opening day until when the actual June draft date is reached in game.

IF the supplemental round is already complete.... and then a GM signs a Type A FA from the previous off-season... I suppose you just skip that pick.

That's what I intend to do in the BCBL. Opening day is the cut off.... once that is reached, the "Draft Order" is officially set in stone in the BCBL even if the game might allow some "pick movement" due to Type A and Type B players being signed AFTER opening day.

Last edited by snnort; 09-11-2009 at 04:35 PM.
snnort is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2009, 05:04 AM   #19 (permalink)
Minors (Rookie Ball)
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 21
Thanks: 1
Thanked 2x in 1 post
I have had a case where changing a player's position from LF to RF changed their Type A status to Type B.

I'm not sure what the OOTP formula is, but ideally fiddling with the position button wouldn't matter because the game would identify players based on the position they HAVE played (which I believe it does when it adjusts VORP for position) rather than the position the user says they are going to play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/10/stats-used-for-.html
First let's start with the positions Elias uses. All players (not just free agents) are put into one of five groups as seen below. Position is designated as the position at which the player appeared the most over the last two seasons.

Group 1: first basemen, outfielders, and designated hitters
Group 2: second basemen, third basemen, and shortstops
Group 3: catchers
Group 4: starters
Group 5: relievers
Here are the stat categories used for each of the five position groups.

1B/OF/DH: PA, AVG, OBP, HR, RBI
2B/3B/SS: PA, AVG, OBP, HR, RBI, Fielding percentage, Total chances at designated position
C: PA, AVG, OBP, HR, RBI, Fielding percentage, Assists
SP: Total games (total starts + 0.5 * total relief appearances), IP, Wins, W-L Percentage, ERA, Strikeouts
RP: Total games (total relief appearances + 2 * total starts), IP (weighted slightly less than other categories), Wins + Saves, IP/H ratio, K/BB, ERA
JadedMsFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2009, 05:38 PM   #20 (permalink)
Minors (Single A)
 
Kanonen80's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 60
Thanks: 1
Thanked 4x in 2 posts
I have an additional question:

On my team in an on-line league, I have a player who is currently rated as a Type A free agent. We are at the start of the 2011 season, so is this ranking from 2009 and 2010, but will gradually include 2011's stats to the equation (instead of the 2009 stats) as the season goes on?

Also, 2010 was his first season in the states and was not very good (8.0 VORP). If he had been a free agent after 2010, I'm betting he would still be classified as a Class-A free agent. That seems wrong to me considering he was NOT a top performer in my league. Is the game taking in consideration the stats he put up in foreign leagues in 2009? (71.5, 2 leagues) That seems unfair since the quality of competition in those leagues if far lower than the US league.
Kanonen80 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:12 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.1
Copyright © 2013 Out of the Park Developments