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Old 02-08-2013, 01:08 AM   #1 (permalink)
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You know what REEELY burns me up?

The way the AI selects middle relievers and setup men.

It has 4 slots for middle relievers and I place my pitchers in the ORDER I want them to relieve, same with setup men with 3 slots and closer with 2 and mopup with 2.

But, does the AI select in this order? Noooooooooooo! There's this one player it will use every fricking game in every fricking pissability except closer (thank god). I put him LAST in the 4 slots of middle relievers he's chosen FIRST, I put him LAST in the setup slots he's chosen FIRST I put him LAST in the mopup men spots and yes you guessed it again HE's CHOSEN FIRST! And he gives up tons of runs yet is a 5 star pitcher with green ratings bars accross the platform.

It was enough to pull my hair out and the only way I could stop it was to make him a SP and put him in the 6th slot of the starting rotation or of course I could have just dumped him into AAA but he's a high level vet so you know what was coming if I tried to do that. Thank the gods this is his last year and I get a team option on him next year. I paid a ton of money for him and draft picks and he's been the worst pitcher I ever saw for the ratings and stars he has. Even the scout praises the crap out of him but he doesn't produce.

Please FIX this and/or make it an OPTION to have middle reliever and setup men and mopup men rotation settings based on the same principles as the starters with "highest rested", "highest rested occassionally" and "strict order". I much prefer a "strict order" in my bullpen. If my best reliever is ready I want HIM in the game not some joe blow who gives up 6 runs everytime he gets on the field. I don't know what is wrong with this guy or the AI selecting him but it's greatly annoying an unfun.
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Old 02-08-2013, 03:55 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Good points.

Maybe make that post in OOTP14 forum, Markus might include what you want in the new version. Never know.
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Old 02-08-2013, 09:08 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Don't know a lot about how manager decisions are made while simming since I play out all of my games. With that said I am guessing he is being selected because his ratings are so good. Could this be an issue with how your AI evaluation is set up? Would changing the settings to rely more on stats than ratings help?

As far as your suggestion to always use RP in the order listed, best first, highest rested, strict order, etc. is that something you'd really want? Do you want it if you are getting blown out? Your best comes in when you're down 6 in the 8th leaving him tired for the next day when you may be in a tight game? Does the AI use your best in the 5th inning with the P spot leading off in the 6th only to be PH for? Like I said I don't sim but make something like this an option I can turn off in case I do. Just seems to me bullpen use is so different than starting rotation that it isn't a simple thing where you can say "please use a strict order" and get results you will like.

Nothing to do with your OP but as far as your P goes yeah sometimes guys with talent suck. How many games did you give this guy? Did you pull the plug early and put him in the pen? Is he continually bad because his mood is shot since he feels he should start but is instead buried in the pen? Did you pay him so much he can't be traded? You said a vet, how old? Sounds like he may be starting to decline quickly and his evaluations haven't caught up. Maybe you have time to make a deal for anything if other scouts still think he's good too. Even if you had to pay part of his salary it may be worth it, no?
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Old 02-08-2013, 09:13 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Fire usually does it to me.
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:49 AM   #5 (permalink)
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When I play out the games, they're not listed the way I have them set in the depth chart. For the most part, they're arranged by how fresh they are. If the same were true for simming, I would suspect that the pitcher in question has a high stamina rating, especially in relation to the other relievers. Another fix would be to adjust the manager settings to use relievers less often.
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:28 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sweed View Post
Don't know a lot about how manager decisions are made while simming since I play out all of my games. With that said I am guessing he is being selected because his ratings are so good. Could this be an issue with how your AI evaluation is set up? Would changing the settings to rely more on stats than ratings help?

As far as your suggestion to always use RP in the order listed, best first, highest rested, strict order, etc. is that something you'd really want? Do you want it if you are getting blown out? Your best comes in when you're down 6 in the 8th leaving him tired for the next day when you may be in a tight game? Does the AI use your best in the 5th inning with the P spot leading off in the 6th only to be PH for? Like I said I don't sim but make something like this an option I can turn off in case I do. Just seems to me bullpen use is so different than starting rotation that it isn't a simple thing where you can say "please use a strict order" and get results you will like.

Nothing to do with your OP but as far as your P goes yeah sometimes guys with talent suck. How many games did you give this guy? Did you pull the plug early and put him in the pen? Is he continually bad because his mood is shot since he feels he should start but is instead buried in the pen? Did you pay him so much he can't be traded? You said a vet, how old? Sounds like he may be starting to decline quickly and his evaluations haven't caught up. Maybe you have time to make a deal for anything if other scouts still think he's good too. Even if you had to pay part of his salary it may be worth it, no?
Well I had always assumed that if I'm getting blown out the AI would use the mop-up catagory as those usually are the lowest rated pitchers on my team. But, in close games I want my best to come into play not a 9.07 era piece of crap. lol

I think it's just the way this game engine works. It doesn't feel real to me because it feels like the engine is just trying to get to some numerical goals like number of hits, number of doubles, number of triples, number of hit by pitches, number of wild pitches etc etc and just gives some weird results in the process. Like when I'm ahead like 12 to 1 all of a sudden a great pitcher gets one load of er's or r's or big hits against him in a row just to apease the engine. Sometimes it just doesn't feel right that ratings and stats of a player should at least follow some semblance within the game and they end up being total blows(especially when they come to my team lol). The other thing I notice is the amount of leadoff hits the AI gets vs my team. I mean it's nearly every single game Double, Triple, hit hit hit and I don't care who it is even the worst batter on the opposing team and it's a HIT if he's leading off. It is just funny how many games I always start off behind in the FIRST inning it's just not feasable in real life for this to happen as much. 3 runs 5 runs over n over n over and these are STAR pitchers on the mound and yet, lol I still end up winning about 90% of those games. Just too funny, but, you can almost see the engine at work and just not real baseball in my mind.

It's back to that if the humaan gets this player then it must suck and if the humaan trades this player away then it will be GREAT! I know I've just seen it all too often in the 10 years plus of simming I've done now. I get the BEST players in the league and when they get to Texas they BLOW! lol Bryce Harper hitting .229??? Ryan Reiger with 9 rbi's going into JUNE?? I thought he was never going to get another rbi. I finally moved him to another batting position and he finally started getting them again. If the Rangers stadium is suppose to be thie great hitters stadium then how come some of my best hitters suck there? But, you let me trade them away and BOOM they are instant stars waaaaaaay up on the leaderboard where I got them from in the first place. lol

What's really funny though with all my complaining I still win my division every year except 1 but I have yet to win a World Series with an All Star cast and that just blows me away that all my less than 3.00 era pitchers just blow up in the playoffs, give up 6 runs and couldn't throw a strike at the side of a barn and all the great hitters I have become blind and non focused.

Burning me up even more is the fact that the wild card teams and more often than not the LOWEST wild card teams are beating me and many times winning the World Series. Last year was the best year though as I won my division by like 24 games over the 2nd place team. Won like 113 games and still lost to Cleveland in the American League Championship 4-2 and I even won the first 2 games and then lost 4 straight. I beat Cleveland so bad during the regular season too.

Sorry for ranting just had to get it off my chest. This make believe fantasy baseball is just too different from say a Strat-o-Matic game or Action PC Baseball where you get real results instead of mechanical ones or even the old APBA system or Big League Manager I played back in the 70's.
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Old 02-08-2013, 12:10 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I've been playing this game since Season Ticket 2. I have never felt that the game was manipulating results to reach so called "magic numbers" Glad I'm not smart enough to see things the way you do.
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Old 02-08-2013, 12:12 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by raginhood View Post
Sorry for ranting just had to get it off my chest. This make believe fantasy baseball is just too different from say a Strat-o-Matic game or Action PC Baseball where you get real results instead of mechanical ones or even the old APBA system or Big League Manager I played back in the 70's.
I agree, maybe you should just stick with these.
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Old 02-08-2013, 01:27 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I've been playing this game since Season Ticket 2. I have never felt that the game was manipulating results to reach so called "magic numbers" Glad I'm not smart enough to see things the way you do.
Agreed, I have never felt OOTP "creating" results for the sake of ending up with the "right" stats.

It never ceases to amaze me how the human mind can see whatever pattern it is looking to see. If you "know" you give up more lead-off hits then you get then that is what you will see.

Maybe I "know" OOTP doesn't manipulate the outcome so that is all I see
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Old 02-08-2013, 01:39 PM   #10 (permalink)
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This make believe fantasy baseball is just too different from say a Strat-o-Matic game or Action PC Baseball where you get real results instead of mechanical ones or even the old APBA system or Big League Manager I played back in the 70's.
But then Strat and all of the other replays are DESIGNED to create results for every individual player. Talk about mechanical. The funny thing about Strat is there were some questionable results all over the place. My 1972 "Swingin A's" had Joe Rudi who hit .305 in the regular season, the only .300 hitter on the club in a pitchers era. He never hit over .275 for me and as a youngster I played 4-5 seasons per version with whatever team I chose to play with. So 5 straight seasons and never over .275! There were players like this every version. Played with the 83(?) Orioles IIRC and Kenny Singleton hit 32 HRs IRL. Yeah he hit 12 for me in a full season. If I had my old notebooks full of my hand tracked stats I could go on and on..

I played Strat from 1969 up 'til 1990 when I found Lance Haffner Full Count(?) Baseball for the pc. A replay game that kept the stats and standings for me. I was in heaven, or so I thought.

I then did High Heat and on their boards and baseballsimcentral I heard about a game a German coded called OOTP with true dynasty play. I've never looked back.

Your welcome to your opinions just because we differ doesn't make me right and you wrong. I just don't see the things you see.
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Old 02-08-2013, 01:40 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Agreed, I have never felt OOTP "creating" results for the sake of ending up with the "right" stats.

It never ceases to amaze me how the human mind can see whatever pattern it is looking to see. If you "know" you give up more lead-off hits then you get then that is what you will see.

Maybe I "know" OOTP doesn't manipulate the outcome so that is all I see
There's a difference in "knowing" and "thinking" you know.

If you notice in the setup of the game there are numbers placed for ab's, singles, doubles, triples, home runs, hit by pitches, walks and strikeouts. These numbers DO manipulate the game according to those numbers. If you don't think so change a few of them around and you'll see.
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Old 02-08-2013, 01:53 PM   #12 (permalink)
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If you notice in the setup of the game there are numbers placed for ab's, singles, doubles, triples, home runs, hit by pitches, walks and strikeouts. These numbers DO manipulate the game according to those numbers. If you don't think so change a few of them around and you'll see.
Also, if you change the ratings of individual players, in the Editor, you will see these players performing differently than they did IRL. It's hard to understand why Markus hasn't figured out how to get real life human beings to pitch and hit in the game, so we can get realistic results, instead of relying to a bunch of numbers.
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:04 PM   #13 (permalink)
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There's a difference in "knowing" and "thinking" you know.

If you notice in the setup of the game there are numbers placed for ab's, singles, doubles, triples, home runs, hit by pitches, walks and strikeouts. These numbers DO manipulate the game according to those numbers. If you don't think so change a few of them around and you'll see.
But not on an AB by AB basis, hitter by hitter basis, not human controlled player compared to cpu controlled player.

And of course all games do this don't they? Strat is manipulated by the cards and the dice. OOTP by the ratings and the "dice rolls". Strats league totals are determined by the entire card set and the probability of dice rolls.

OOTP's league totals are set as a target and then with repeated testing, in old versions, and now auto-calc (thank goodness) in new versions, the game simulates 3 seasons with your rosters to ensure the computer dice rolls will result in the desired stat output. This testing is no different than what Strat does unless you don't think they test their card set before releasing it.

The current ratings of the players, with the LTMs, will then result in the desired output. A 20 power guy will hit ~40 HRs if your LTMs are set for x number of HRs. No different than Strat making sure Harmon Killebrew hits ~45-50 hrs in the 1969 season. Those ~45 hrs Killebrew hits will be his share of whatever Strats target is for HR output, just as 20 power rating will result in an OOTP player getting his "share" of the HR pie. Neither Strat or OOTP will make sure Killebrew hits a HR in his current AB in an on-going game because the league is running a bit short on HRs. Why would it? Those likely hoods have already been established in either the Strat card set or the LTM of your OOTP league.

edit to correct spelling

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Old 02-08-2013, 02:59 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Old 02-08-2013, 05:19 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Let me show you some examples that I face ALL THE FLIPPIN TIME!

This guy and the next guy were my two setup men LAST year. Look at their numbers last year and the previous years and then look what happened to them this year. They both just folded and runs just poured off of them.
Then look at the next two guys I replaced them with.

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NEW REPLACEMENTS

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I don't mind a player falling apart I don't mind age catching up to them but for the love of grace at least represent it in the RATINGS and the STARS neither of those first two players are 5 stars by stats they are pieces of crapola. lol

Oh and before anybody says it both of the first two playes were HAPPY in their roles before I threw them both into AAA minors that's why the sad faces now. Maybe when I bring them back up, IF I bring them back up they will have learned their lesson. When you pitch for MEEEE you pitch well or you're gone or back to the minors. I don't put up with no crapola pitchers.

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Old 02-08-2013, 05:26 PM   #16 (permalink)
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This is what you must pitch like to be on the Texas Rangers.

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Already pulling away from the rest of the bunch with this staff.
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Old 02-08-2013, 05:34 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I don't mind a player falling apart I don't mind age catching up to them but for the love of grace at least represent it in the RATINGS and the STARS neither of those first two players are 5 stars by stats they are pieces of crapola. lol
How boring would baseball be if you always knew what was going to happen?

If you want perfect ratings, then play with perfect scouting accuracy. It's an option. However, both of the first two guys have extremely high BABIP, so it was probably partly luck that their performance dropped.

In real life, reliever performance can be extremely variable. OOTP is no different.
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Old 02-08-2013, 05:54 PM   #18 (permalink)
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How boring would baseball be if you always knew what was going to happen?

If you want perfect ratings, then play with perfect scouting accuracy. It's an option. However, both of the first two guys have extremely high BABIP, so it was probably partly luck that their performance dropped.

In real life, reliever performance can be extremely variable. OOTP is no different.
I understand and agree with that Cinnamon. It's the stars and stripes that drive me nuts because I'm basing players play on them and of course previous years stats because unlike real life that's all I have to go on. In real life there's a whole other mess of variables like behind the scenes stuff with family and friends or drugs and booze and this game doesn't really give you that stuff.

The other thing that makes it frustrating is when you expect a real life player to be like he is in real life within the game. Can you imagine if Verlander comes out this year pitching 7.00 to 9.00 era ball in real life? Now I do realize these players are relievers and don't get innings like the starters do but I've even taken them and put them in starting rotations and they still get creamed with hits and runs and low K's and high BB's. Plus if you look at their AAA stats those aren't even as good as they should be compared to their stars and ratings. Both of them should be pitching 1.00 or a little higher ball in AAA by now. Most of the pitchers I bring up are below 2.00 era ball in AAA and even these end up being 4.00 or more pitchers for the most part but of course every now and then I get one that holds his era down and becomes a GREAT pitcher like these two were for a few years and then they just fell apart.

Don't get me wrong anybody I DO like this game, it is fun, it is frustrating at the same time. If this is what happens in real life I would never want to be a manager though because I do expect my players to perform up to their standards that I've seen and know they should. I know though every player won't, but, in my world and my GAME I EXPECT them to. so sue me
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Old 02-08-2013, 06:02 PM   #19 (permalink)
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The other thing that makes it frustrating is when you expect a real life player to be like he is in real life within the game.
Go fictional. It's another universe (that's a good soap opera title). Way back in v6.5 days Joe Dimaggio was a reserve OF on the Phillies. That was enough for me to stick to fictional. It's so immersive sometimes you think fictional players are real. No more artificial expectations.
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Old 02-08-2013, 06:56 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Go fictional. It's another universe (that's a good soap opera title). Way back in v6.5 days Joe Dimaggio was a reserve OF on the Phillies. That was enough for me to stick to fictional. It's so immersive sometimes you think fictional players are real. No more artificial expectations.
Well, heh, let's face it 11 years after 2013 it pretty much fictional anyways isn't it? I mean a few real life players are still around but many of them are in or nearing retirement age.
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