The would be poise rating- deconstructing an example

[Crapshoot]

Carlton, the funny thing is that you want a replay which will develop those players to do exactly what they did in real life, while I want a dynamic model that will describe the general trends, but not control every single player. I believe DMB is a replay game- more suited to you than me thus. And you still haven't justified the brilliance of the statheadz only want high velocity pitchers. Power Pitchers do tend to last longer- that's a fact- whether it fits in with your view of baseball is your problem, not everyone elses.

[Carlton]

Hilarious...

Always a joy when the OTBL guys come over from the OT border.

I said historical careers...which means invariables come into play.
AND that the whole point of 'poise' as it was stated in the OOTP6 release thread was that it would be more for how the CPU AI looks at pitchers in regards to SP position.
What does that even have to do with Online leagues anyway?

Aadik you are missing my point on the velocity thing. Programming wise...a high velocity pitcher when looked at by the CPU AI...will be more valuable then a lower velocity guy...especially if the velocity=better chance of increase in strikeout rating comes into play.

The whole point is I think YOU are overemphasizing the impact "poise" will have on a P. You believe it is like clutch and might may a player better than his ratings state.

I think "poise" is only there to make the opposing CPU AI (as opposed from myself running one team in the league) put a little more emphasis on having a fairly good talent pitcher keep his starting spot over a rookie...instead of having Joe Schmoe who had 4 good years getting bumped into relief or AAA because a stronger, but not fully 'evolved' pitcher came into play.

[matskralc]

Hilarious...Carlton doesn't address anything anyone said. You want a historically accurate replay, this isn't your game.

[Crapshoot]

When did I say a damn thing about online leagues ? I am simply pointing out that us solo gamers who want to replicate the real world do not want to replicate something that no one has ever quite proven exists- its that simple. While you may enjoy your little pot shots at the OTBL (which has more to do with your issue), you still haven't answered my question. How do statheadz hate players like Moyer, or any other pitcher who doesn't lack stuff but has good K/BB ratios or good control ?

[Hammer755]

Originally posted by Swan
I just enjoy exploring all possible situations before I conclude decisively if something is inherently benificial or not.

That being said, I absolutely do not condone the use of poise in OOTP. The name itself is remarkably ridiculous.

I am still a card carrying stathead, and recognize that objectivity has to remain prevelant. I was simply coloring outside the lines for a bit.

Gotcha, sorry for the overreaction.

I agree that it's important to look at these things from all angles. This arguing is pretty much pointless til we get our hands on the game anyway. All we have to go on is what Markus has said up to this point. But I would rather see it tweaked before release than to get a finished version that may taint an otherwise solid engine re-design with a facet that flies in the face of the new DIPS utilization.

[clarnzz]

- Poise (influences the big picture... younger pitchers may have great stuff but no idea how to use it, while old veterans are losing velocity but still can pitch effectively with a high poise rating)


This is what scares me about poise. Old veterans are still pitching effectivly without velocity/strikeouts because they prevent walks. Not because of "poise"

There is already a control rating for this, what is poise needed for?

Young pitchers with great stuff usually suffer because they allow too many walks.

Once again we already have a control rating to simulate that.


The thing that I think most people are fearing with poise rating is that it will create pitchers with huge statistical abnormalities, much like the avoiding hits rating did.

[Crapshoot]

Originally posted by Swan
Oh man.. not at all! I guess I am just trying to figure out why Markus is doing the whole "Poise" thing anyways.... the first time I heard about "poise', I posted in my IOSBL league, "Pitchers are not freakin' ballerinas!"


I just enjoy exploring all possible situations before I conclude decisively if something is inherently benificial or not.

That being said, I absolutely do not condone the use of poise in OOTP. The name itself is remarkably ridiculous.

I am still a card carrying stathead, and recognize that objectivity has to remain prevelant. I was simply coloring outside the lines for a bit.

legit point- didn't mean to insult you. My objections are based on what little I know about it now, and the general connations I percieve about it - if Markus found a statistical model that can actually do this, I would be the first in line.

[Carlton]

I said I wanted a better success rate of older players and junkballers staying in the league. I never stated I wanted a complete historic replay.

and wtf are you talking about me saying anything about 'hating' Moyer? I said Moyer is a good example because importing him from Lahman's DB might make his success rate as 10% but when utilizing a talent such as "poise" might make the CPU AI stick with him if his ratings are comparable to a similiar pitcher...thus making his success rate maybe 50% that the CPU won't drop him out of the rotation as soon as a 7 in K's and BB's (or control for OOTP6) AND a higher velocity rating pitcher comes along...even if that pitcher doesn't have the other ratings that Moyer does. I have seen in it in alot of solo leagues...yes even fictional, where a talented control P gets bumped over for a power pitcher.

Simply put I want more diversity...just because I used historical examples doesn't mean I want everything to be right on the line, that's what you guys are reading into. I am talking about OOTP and it's programming being very biased towards power pitchers and HR hitters, in regards to whom the CPU AI starts.

As for the online league question I asked because I wanted to know if you did do a fictional league and why you didn't see the bias OOTP had to "modern day baseball" because it does...and from what I gather "Poise" and a better emphasis on how the CPU AI judges defense in OOTP6 is a step away from that...which IMO is a good thing.

[matskralc]

Originally posted by Carlton
I am talking about OOTP and it's programming being very biased towards power pitchers and HR hitters, in regards to whom the CPU AI starts.

That's because that's typically the best chance to win. No matter WHAT era you are in: power pitching and power hitting WINS. So you want the AI programmed to NOT do what is best for its team?

[Hammer755]

Originally posted by Carlton
Simply put I want more diversity...just because I used historical examples doesn't mean I want everything to be right on the line, that's what you guys are reading into. I am talking about OOTP and it's programming being very biased towards power pitchers and HR hitters, in regards to whom the CPU AI starts.

But that's baseball - you want an accurate baseball sim and that's what it should do. General managers, scouts, and managers almost always will go with the power pitcher over the junkballer. For every Jamie Moyer, how many guys do you think had to retire because the manager went with a young fireballer?

You're pointing to the exeptions - Moyer, Young, Maddux. That's 3 players over 100 years. A good statistical model shouldn't be able to produce those results because they are such big outliers.

[mlyons]

After all this arguing, has anyone really figured out what "poise" is actually going to represent in OOTP6?

[Carlton]

Whatever...fine

Power pitching and HR power is not everything baseball is about...
The game should not take a player Avg in BA, good in HR with E range at SS over a guy with good in BA poor in HR with A range at SS.

You think that's what baseball is all about that's fine, for me I find it illogical

Same with a P with 8 velocity and 8 in K's but 6 in BA and 6 in walks put ahead of a pitcher with 5 in velocity 3 in K's but 7 in BA and 7 in walks.

I have seen it too many times.

You think I am throwing out exceptions...do this

Start a league in 1901...then fill minors with fictional players...tell me next year how many 'real' players are starting....10%...maybe

You guys are taking the stance on what baseball has turned into...but where does that leave us that like to recreate 1871 to the 1960's? and no just because 12 guys were BIG HR hitters during that time, doesn't mean after 1920...baseball became a big power game...you still had IF's batting with little or no HRs...but with Lahman's and OOTP those guys have little chance to see a decent career. Same with the pitchers who didn't strikeout a decent amount during their career.

My point is that if things like poise will help historical sims, then I am for it. Whether you think it was idiotic to have a 3 man staff, and older players or not...that was the norm. OOTP already has so much based mainly on modern day baseball, yet it is still the best option to recreate the past.

I still think you guys are overemphasizing what Poise will be...clutch and consistency rating hasn't seem to hurt version 5

[rasnell]

With Markus' new post, poise is now out of the pitcher and won't be in the game. However, Carlton raises some points that could be addressed with the player development curve, with some pitchers getting better at control, avoiding homers as they get older. I would like to see more of that.

I also agree that there should be a far greater penalty for using a homerun gun with an E rating at SS -- forcing today's owners to think long and hard about keeping Ozzie Smith in the modern-era lineup.

[draven085]

Originally posted by rasnell
I also agree that there should be a far greater penalty for using a homerun gun with an E rating at SS -- forcing today's owners to think long and hard about keeping Ozzie Smith in the modern-era lineup.

I disagree. Defense is far too important in OOTP5 (Markus has admitted as much) and the difference between an 'E' SS and an 'A' is already vast. Thankfully, Markus has also stated that defense will be altered in version 6 and will be much closer to it's true level of importance.

[lynchjm24]

Originally posted by Carlton

Start a league in 1901...then fill minors with fictional players...tell me next year how many 'real' players are starting....10%...maybe

Well then your issue is with how it imports the database. And if you wanted to recreate history why would you fill the minors?

[Carlton]

lynch that statement was too show how OOTP is very bias towards HR hitters and Power pitchers.

If you do that test, fictional players hitting .170 with 10hrs will be in the lineup over .330 0 HR hitters

If you do that test fictional P's with C SP endurance with average BA allowed and HR allowed ratings will displace pitchers that have low velocity, and K totals but high BA Allowed and HR allowed ratings.

The CPU AI in OOTP basically looks at "today's players" and makes judgements in that respect.

But poise is out the window...and Draven I have no idea where you came up with defense being TOO important when it comes to the CPU AI doing its depth charts and promoting players

Create two SS's (Most valuable defensive position)
SS#1 E range .950% Is rated Average in hits, good in HRs, average in BB and Ks
SS#2 A range .990% Is rated Brillant in hits poor in HR, poor in BB and good in K's

Let the CPU fill out it's depth chart...which SS is starting? Damn right its that one who can't field...with the A range guy being the defensive replacement.

As for this being fixed...I doubt it...many OOTP6 features are in regards to Online play, where the CPU AI doeasn't even come into play.

What Markus meant by defense being too important Draven was in the regards of outcome of games...NOT depth chart and roster management by the CPU AI

[draven085]

Originally posted by Carlton

But poise is out the window...and Draven I have no idea where you came up with defense being TOO important when it comes to the CPU AI doing its depth charts and promoting players

What Markus meant by defense being too important Draven was in the regards of outcome of games...NOT depth chart and roster management by the CPU AI

I wasn't addressing your concerns. The other guy stated that there needs to be a greater penalty for playing an iron glove at SS. I disagreed. Since defense in OOTP5 is over-valued you're automatically paying a greater price than you should for going with the good with the good stick because the difference between an "A" shortstop and an "E" will be greater than it would be in real life.

[holyroller]

Originally posted by Carlton
no just because 12 guys were BIG HR hitters during that time, doesn't mean after 1920...baseball became a big power game...you still had IF's batting with little or no HRs...but with Lahman's and OOTP those guys have little chance to see a decent career.

Home runs by season

1920: 630
1921: 937
1922: 1055
1923: 980
1924: 896
1925: 1169
1926: 863
1927: 922
1928: 1093
1929: 1349

Not sure what your point is regarding the top ten or twelve guys not meaning the game had become a power league. First of all, the top ten to twelve home run hitters have always and will always represent one extreme end of the spectrum. The IF's you mention who weren't hitting home runs represent the other end. That was true in the twenties and it is true today. The 20s and 30s were one of the most offensive periods in baseball history and fueling that run production was home runs.

[Crapshoot]

Actually, it was more than that- it was a lot of triples and doubles, because the parks were pretty big- one of the big problem with Coors is not just the air, but the frigging size. The 1930's were one of the most offensive era's ever- if not the most- that point is absolutely legit - the average runs scored per game was more than 0.5 a run greater than what it is now.

[Spielman]

Originally posted by rasnell
forcing today's owners to think long and hard about keeping Ozzie Smith in the modern-era lineup.

Y'know, Ozzie could hit a bit.

If he couldn't have, he'd have been Mark Belanger, not Ozzie Smith.

-Spielman