Poise, Poise, and Poise again ;)

[rem]

Cool. Thanks.

[Hoiles]

In keeping with the Diamond Mind articles,I think some sort of poise rating that is non-existent (or very low) for some pitchers, but may improve with time, is a great idea. That is, a rookie won`t have any poise, but may eventually develop some. One thing about OOTP is that pitchers like Johnson and Maddux tend to fall off the table rapidly (even after the patches), and it`s practically impossible for a pitcher to even get 250 wins anymore. If they`ve got "poise" they can be effective for a couple of seasons longer even if they`re stuff isn`t that great anymore.

[BleacherBum]

My interpretation of the 4 ratings is that Velocity will be the least signficant rating. Am I misreading this? Hopefully the value of the fireballer has not diminished. Also, think about the guys who hit the high 90's on the gun - don't they all have "great stuff" by default?

[mlyons]

Originally posted by BleacherBum
My interpretation of the 4 ratings is that Velocity will be the least signficant rating. Am I misreading this? Hopefully the value of the fireballer has not diminished. Also, think about the guys who hit the high 90's on the gun - don't they all have "great stuff" by default?

No. If you throw a straight fastball in the high 90's, it's no more effective than a fastball in the low 90's with movement on it. Stuff would also have to take into account all other pitches besides the fastball.

[jerrycapo]

Originally posted by crackpott
For one, I don't understand from a baseball point the difference between "stuff" and "movement". They seem to be synonyms for each other.

Having watched a lot of Braves games during the 90's when Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz were winning all the Cy Young awards the words stuff, movement and control were used alot.

It was always said that Smoltz had the best stuff. He had several pitches he could throw for strikes, he threw harder but he worked the strike zone top to bottom. He relied on his "stuff" to get hitters out.

Maddux wasn't considered to have great stuff. He pretty much throws only fastballs with an occasional change up. The difference between Maddux and other great fastball pitchers is Maddux's fastballs are not overpowering. What he is able to do is use movement to fool hitters. He also had superb control and was able to change speeds. He worked the plate from left to right. You knew he was going to throw a strike, you just didn't know where.

Glavine relied on his control as he threw just about everything away from a hitter with the occasional inside pitch to keep hitters honest. He also relied more on change-ups and mixed in the occassional fastball. What made Glavine so good though was his ability to mix speeds. You knew he was going to throw the ball outside you just didn't know how fast.

This is an example of three pitchers using stuff, movement, and control in three different ways. Hope this helps.

All the best
Jerry

[D Love]

Regarding those lamenting the loss of Poise because it could have slowed the detioration of pitchers as they aged, won't the new settings where you can change the effects of aging do the same? Since there will be randomized fluctuations between players nonetheless, I would imagine you'll get the Ps who can keep going in their 40s.

I do see how this presents a problem for historical replays, however... Glad I'm not the one who has to program all this stuff.

[GODHAN]

I think velocity is pretty important. If you can throw a 100 mph fastball, all u need is a fair amount of control with a change-up, and u're pretty unhittable. Guys like Rocker and K-Rod are pretty good examples of a 2-pitch repertoire based off of velocity.

[mlyons]

Originally posted by GODHAN
I think velocity is pretty important. If you can throw a 100 mph fastball, all u need is a fair amount of control with a change-up, and u're pretty unhittable. Guys like Rocker and K-Rod are pretty good examples of a 2-pitch repertoire based off of velocity.

And if you can throw a 94 mph cutter, you're pretty unhittable (Mariano Rivera). Or if you can throw an 89 mph fastball and move it around well, you can be pretty unhittable (Maddux). Velocity certainly helps a pitcher, but it's definitely just one of many factors determining how good someone is at pitching.

[JDOldSchool]

Originally posted by crackpott
My other concern is the weighting of each category. I would argue that velocity should have a slightly greater role (maybe not as much as the others, but it should influence K's more than "slightly", and control's influence on homerun's should be minimal. My concern is that the control rating is going to be far too important in the grand scheme of things.

The real life Barry Zito has an average of 178Ks a season and he throws around 90 mph. Velocity should not heavily influence strikeouts. While it may be true that guys with high velocity do strike out hitters more often than not, I feel it would penalize very good pitchers that do not pitch with much velocity.

A pitcher's control is very important. The more guys he allows to reach base, the better chance he'll give up runs. I'd rather a guy give up a solo home run than 3 walks and a single (which would score at least one, maybe two...and possibly more if the defense falls apart).

[BleacherBum]

Velocity isn't the only way to be a good strikeout pitcher - I don't think anyone is suggesting that. However, high velocity will get you plenty of strikeouts (as long as you can get the ball near the plate), and for that reason it shouldn't be just a minor influence on a pitchers strikeout totals. A 98 mph major league pitcher is going to have high strikeout totals.

[woody5254]

The difference between stuff and movement as I think of it:
Stuff is the variety in your arsenal that you can throw at a batter in any particular at bat.

Movement-Is the actual quality of the pitching regardless of variety.

I could be wrong that is just my opinion.

[woody5254]

As far as K's go, it should be a function of all the pitching ratings including Velocity. You can't say velocity isn't important in strikeouts because Barry Zito averages 178 a year. All that means is he utilizes a different technique to get guys to swing or look at strike three.

If you minimize velocity you are saying that guys like Clemens and Randy Johnson don't use their velocity to get the K's. That is simply not true. Not that Johnson and Clemens totally rely on their velocity either, but it is large part of their success in the world of strikeouts.