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-   -   Balancing Recalc & Development (http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/earlier-versions-ootp-historical-simulations/205222-balancing-recalc-development.html)

fredmanrique 01-14-2011 11:43 AM

Balancing Recalc & Development
 
I run an online league (historical/mixed DB/recalc on/dev on) where one of my owners is having an annoying time with Randy Johnson, as discussed in this thread:

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...er-recalc.html

The bottom line, if you don't want to read the thread- Johnson recalcs accordingly each season, but thanks to development being on in our league, during each season his velocity starts to go down, which means his Stuff rating nosedives, which hurts him quite a bit- ratings-wise- b/c so much of his value is in his stuff rating. It is very clear from testing I have done that having development on is doing this and that the development AI sees Johnson is 30+ and supposed to throw 99+ and says "no way, we're going to knock down his velocity b/c he's 30+"

OK, enough freaking background! Here's my problem- the only solution I've seen to this problem is: "Turn development off. I never use development in a recalc league."

BUT- while that is an answer to the specific Randy Johnson problem, it's not a solution because turning recalc off allows for other issues that affect the whole league. I ran some tests ahead, for example, and I now have a 45-year-old Mike Mussina still pitching and he has had the exact same ratings for going on 9 seasons. AND- this is what happens with every single player that has run out of real life stats- they simply maintain the exact same ratings year after year after year.

So now your answer is: "Well, you have to play with 'retire according to history' on." But I don't like that answer either. In an online league, that creates a level of predictability that dampens player movement.

So my question: Has anyone found a balance with recalc & development that allows the two to work together? Where you DON"T get guys coming "off the reservation" with the exact same ratings every year? I've been playing in my tests with the the pitcher & batting aging factors and suspect that is the only avenue, but maybe someone else has a better idea.

PS- I realize this is long-winded and there are aspects of this to argue from a personal preference standpoint ("You HAVE to turn development off!" "You have to retire according to history!" "There's NOTHING that can be done!" and blah, blah, blah.)- the point is: this is the way we want to run our league. If you disagree with it and think we're stupid, good for you! But don't waste my time telling me that. I'm simply looking for creative ideas that people may use, not for what you think about our league setup.

Thanks!

Charlie Hough 01-14-2011 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fredmanrique (Post 3081958)
I ran some tests ahead, for example, and I now have a 45-year-old Mike Mussina still pitching and he has had the exact same ratings for going on 9 seasons. AND- this is what happens with every single player that has run out of real life stats- they simply maintain the exact same ratings year after year after year.

In my experience, this does not happen. Occasionally there is a player with an elongated career at surprisingly good ratings, but most seem to fade once there are no longer any stats to use as a basis for recalculation.

I will run some additional tests to verify this, but I don't recall any cases of perpetual youth in OOTP.

Spritze 01-14-2011 12:37 PM

I have seen lots of cases of perpetual youth in OOTP11 (both with development off and on) but not in OOTPx so something must have changed. In my current league Mel Ott played until the mid 1950's and had ratings of 80/80 at that age (on a 80 point scale).

I think this may be a bug, not a game settings issue.

Charlie Hough 01-14-2011 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze (Post 3081973)
I have seen lots of cases of perpetual youth in OOTP11 (both with development off and on) but not in OOTPx so something must have changed. In my current league Mel Ott played until the mid 1950's and had ratings of 80/80 at that age (on a 80 point scale).

I think this may be a bug, not a game settings issue.


Unfortunately, I think you're right, Spritze. Typically I use the setting for players to retire according to history, so maybe I hadn't played much without that option since OOTP10. Now it appears that some players are hanging on indefinitely.

I just ran a test game starting in 1946 and stopped after 1954. Hank Greenberg is still playing at the age of 44, and his ratings have remained the same since 1948, which was the first season after his real life stats ended. He just had a season at .248 with 33 home runs and 92 RBI in 456 at bats.

A truly glaring example is Nate Andrews. His real life stats ended after 1946, the first year of my game. His ratings have remained the same ever since and he's still pitching at the age of 41. He even had Tommy John surgery in 1949 and remained unaffected. He has played eight seasons longer than his real life MLB career, and he has shown no signs of decline.

Fortunately, many players who exhibit this perpetual youth play a few seasons beyond their careers and then retire. One example is Nels Potter. His real life stats ended after 1949, and his ratings in OOTP remained the same after a slight downgrade in control heading into 1950. He pitched for four more seasons until the age of 43. But he just retired. This despite having a 4.5 star overall rating and finishing 7-5 with a 3.21 ERA in 58 relief appearances.

This definitely needs to be addressed.

fredmanrique 01-14-2011 09:28 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Maybe I'm crazy, but I have always found this to be the case as long as development is off (X & 11). Here's an example of one of my tests- this (attachment- don't know how to embed a screen shot) is Pitcher A, but every single player in the league has the same issue if they are past their real-life stats.

Am I crazy? I have always been under the impression that development off=this problem. That's why I assumed someone had done some testing with balancing recalc & development working together.

[IMG]file:///Users/Samueladdison/Library/Caches/TemporaryItems/moz-screenshot.png[/IMG]

Garlon 01-15-2011 11:12 AM

If you don't Disable Player Development you are essentially playing a fictional league with real names.

If you don't Retire Players According to History you are essentially playing a fictional league with real names.

If you don't play with Recalc Player Ratings you are essentially playing a fictional league with real names.

Why? Because without those parameters you are letting OOTP's development engine, which is designed for fictional players and leagues, take over.

Spritze 01-15-2011 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garlon (Post 3082365)
playing a fictional league with real names.

Which is a valid way to play and therefore this issue remains a bug.

This Bug has been Posted to the Bug Posting place where one Posts Bugs. Buggerific!

Pronkytonk 01-17-2011 06:56 AM

I thought about this problem quite a lot because I experienced the very same thing in my semi-historical sims. To me, the biggest issue is that players will retire much later than they should because AFAIK the loss of ratings is very important for the "decision" of a given player to retire or not. To play with "retire according to history" on is not an option for me because I like to see how several "what if"-scenarios play out (Joe Jackson playing beyond 1919 is one of the most prominent examples).

I am currently experimenting with a very low development modifier (to keep cup-of-coffee-guys from having HOF careers) and a reduced aging modifier (I don't want ratings to decrease during a season to keep them closer to their RL stats, but I definitely want to see this after the season for guys without recalc data available).

However, the best solution would be if Markus could give us an option to keep development off, but having the modifiers (especially aging modifiers)work if there is no data for recalc for a given player in a league with recalc on. It doesn't even have to be optional for me, I personally would be fine if OOTP would do this automatically.

Spritze 01-19-2011 01:35 AM

I am testing a Spritze 18-45 db. Players have stats until age 45 which keeps them from hitting 50 HR's at age 45 and the game seems to retire them well before age 45 as they sorta suck per their aged stats. If this challenge does not get fixed this db seems to get the game to knock off the perpetual youth thing.

Pronkytonk 01-19-2011 03:44 AM

Spritze, this may be exactly what I am looking for. Again many many thanks for your efforts :flowers:

fredmanrique 01-19-2011 10:37 AM

Damn, Spritze- you are the man.

fredmanrique 01-19-2011 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pronkytonk (Post 3083005)
I am currently experimenting with a very low development modifier (to keep cup-of-coffee-guys from having HOF careers) and a reduced aging modifier (I don't want ratings to decrease during a season to keep them closer to their RL stats, but I definitely want to see this after the season for guys without recalc data available).

Any luck with this? I've been experimenting with the same thing, but haven't found the magic #/settings level yet.

fredmanrique 01-19-2011 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pronkytonk (Post 3083005)
However, the best solution would be if Markus could give us an option to keep development off, but having the modifiers (especially aging modifiers)work if there is no data for recalc for a given player in a league with recalc on. It doesn't even have to be optional for me, I personally would be fine if OOTP would do this automatically.

Amen to this. Real life stats present=turn development off for player. Real life stats gone=turn development on.

fredmanrique 01-19-2011 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pronkytonk (Post 3083005)
I am currently experimenting with a very low development modifier (to keep cup-of-coffee-guys from having HOF careers)

Pronk, you probably already do some of this, but I'm doing a couple of things in our league to prevent the "cup-of-coffee curse" from changing the face of the league:

1. Erasing those guys from our draft pool. To make our draft pool, you have to have had a certain amount of AB's or IP. (It changes depending on how badly I need to round out the draft pool, but this gets rid of a lot of guys.) This prevents the guys who had 2 HR's in 8 career AB's from becoming Babe Ruth.

2. The initial adjust/weaken import settings seem to help with this as well. I've turned them up a fair amount- this prevents the guys like Shane Spencer (10 HR's in 73 AB's in rookie season) from being rated like the Babe for that one season, then being rated accordingly (i.e. a scrub) for the rest of his career.

Pronkytonk 01-20-2011 04:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fredmanrique (Post 3083671)
Any luck with this? I've been experimenting with the same thing, but haven't found the magic #/settings level yet.

Well, not to the extent that everything is OK. With a development modifier of about .100 and aging at about .600 things start to look a little better (especially concerning retirement), but those cup-of-coffee players still manage to have way too much of a career. I am retiring those guys manually after the year they played in RL, but maybe the idea of deleting them right from the start gets better results - I might try that out.

The automatic weakening for players with minimal ABs or IPs are some kind of problem - I am still figuring out how to use them best given the fact that I start in 1871 with 30-70 game seasons played back then.

For now I might put my historical sim projects to rest until Spritze or Markus help me out ...

Kobeck 01-21-2011 04:27 AM

wouldn't that 18-45 db solve the issue?

I know it will not fix the bug though

Spritze 01-21-2011 05:53 PM

New db seems ok but I've only tested minimally so far. The players seem to retire earlier as they do not become superstars at 42 anymore.

Plan to test semi-fully Saturday and get it posted Sunday on my ftp site and when he can git'er done also on Padres Fans site.

Always assuming there are no unforseeables that I have not forseen.

Spritze 18-46 2010.zip uploaded to my ftp site. If you need this database PM me.

majesty95 04-24-2011 05:31 AM

ok, I have a couple of questions...
  • Is the 18-45 DB merged with any other DB? ie high school?
  • Is there a way to have some sort of randomness (ie development) along with using recalc (to keep things similar to RL but not exact)?

I can't speak for others but I would like the "what if" factor to be an option for my historical leagues but for them not to stray way off from real life. For example, I wouldn't mind Kevin Maas having a decent 10 year career, but I don't neccessarily want to see him hi 500 homers. Also, having Barry Bonds stay a 30-40 HR and 40-50 SB guy as opposed to becoming a masher late would be cool.

Basically, I want to seem a little randomness and a few minor-medium surprises while mostly staying close to real life...

majesty95 04-27-2011 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by majesty95 (Post 3120482)
[*]Is there a way to have some sort of randomness (ie development) along with using recalc (to keep things similar to RL but not exact)?

???

Spritze 04-27-2011 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by majesty95 (Post 3120482)
ok, I have a couple of questions...

Is the 18-45 DB merged with any other DB? ie high school?...

Yes


Quote:

Originally Posted by majesty95 (Post 3120482)
Is there a way to have some sort of randomness (ie development) along with using recalc (to keep things similar to RL but not exact)?

No


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