Market Drift and Fan Loyalty

SSG Troyer · 06-17-2006, 02:56 PM

Repeat posting from a General Forum post that got no responses:

I started my 2x3x8 universe carefully setting Market size to 2 through 9 for each division. My ML level uses smaller cities, no real-life major-league cities are used. One team per each of the lower 48 states.

Examples: Burlington, VT. Escanaba, MI. Coeur d'Alene, ID. Fort Myers, FL. Warwick, RI.

I believe the largest city I'm using is Albuquerque, NM.

Each division started with one team with a market of 2, one team with a market of 3, one team with a market of 4, and so on. 35 years later, only seven teams of all 48 have a market less than 10.

Loyalty, kinda the same way, but not so meticulously done, and the smaller market teams tended to have better loyalty. But several teams started with <= 2 loyalty, and only one of the smallest markets started with a loyalty of 10. 35 years later, only 4 teams have less than 10 loyalty, and three of those is 9.

Is this drift financially motivated? If so, it really should be the other way around. If a teams makes x amount of dollars, it's market shouldn't be set by the game to y.

Update:

In 1986, I went through all 48 teams and reset their Markets and Loyalty. Now, in 1988, all Loyalties are back to where they were before (10, with a few 7-9). But even more strange, in the text on the Financials tab, a team with 0 market (Escanaba) has 10 Loyalty, but the text reads "Non-existant loyalty." A quick perusal of other teams shows the Loyalty text matches the Market text, word for word, no matter what the Loyalty rating really is.

SSG Troyer · 06-19-2006, 12:06 PM

bump

SSG Troyer · 06-21-2006, 01:25 PM

Bump #2

Look, I'm gonna keep bumping this until someone asks me for whatever they need to duplicate ...

Raidergoo · 06-21-2006, 04:06 PM

I have asked if this is a bug or is by design.

jbsnadb · 06-21-2006, 08:49 PM

I have a team with a "Tiny" market and "Pathetic Loyalty" drawing 600 more per game on average than the stadium holds.

battists · 07-16-2006, 10:26 PM

SSG,

I'm sorry this got swept under the rug for so long.

I'd still like to figure out if this is an issue, but obviously, you posted this before 1.0.2 was released.

Do you have some time to try to confirm that this is an issue in 1.0.2?

Thanks,

Steve

battists · 07-23-2006, 11:18 PM

We have a rule that states that Tech Support threads wherein we have not received a response within 7 days will be closed.

This one meets this criteria, so I'm closing this.

If you want to discuss it again, just PM me with the thread link, and I'll re-open. (Don't just say "Hey, reopen my thread." I need to know the URL, thanks!)

Steve

battists · 07-24-2006, 02:22 PM

Re-opened per SSG's request.

SSG, is the game still behaving in this way in the most recent patch?

Thanks,

Steve

SSG Troyer · 07-24-2006, 02:22 PM

Yes, sir. It is.

Edit: And, in 1995, Escanaba's Market is still 0, Loyalty still 10, and the text in the Financial tab reads both references as "Non-existant".

Edit #2: Though, I must add that I have not advanced a season since the patching process started ...

battists · 07-24-2006, 02:28 PM

SSG, is it a fair synopsis of your point to say this?

Generally, team loyalty and market size grow over time, to a point where barely any teams have loyalty or ratings size less than 9 or 10. This appears to be largely unaffected by team performance.

SSG Troyer · 07-24-2006, 02:35 PM

Yes, though since resetting everything 9 game-years ago, there are still a number of teams with Markets less than 7 (Escananba's is still 0), though better than half have Loyalties 9 or greater.

I would estimate it takes >25 years for the whole system to become unplayably polarized, requiring a reset ...

Edit #2: There is one team, Rapid City, which has seen a Loyalty drop, and that does appear to be performance related, since they havent finished above 4th since their last playoff appearance in 1973 ...

But, in total, since the reset 9 years ago, when 16 teams were set to a Loyalty of 8 or better, 29 are now in that range ...

SSG Troyer · 07-24-2006, 02:43 PM

To add: The text issue in the Front Office tab seems to be both phrases are keyed to Market size. The Loyalty phrase keys to the Market value, as noted by Reno, which has a Loyalty of 4 (started 2) and a Market of 7 (started 6), and reads Market as "Rather Big" and Loyalty as "Good".

battists · 07-24-2006, 02:54 PM

I have logged the text issue (Loyalty value based on Market size) as TT # 2411.

I have logged the market drift issue as TT # 2412.

Thanks,

Steve

SSG Troyer · 07-24-2006, 02:57 PM

Thank you.

battists · 08-18-2006, 04:04 PM

Markus has claimed that this issue will be fixed in 1.0.3. However, we have not yet received a test version of 1.0.3 with which to verify.

Thanks very much,

Steve

06-17-2006, 02:56 PM	#1 (permalink)
SSG Troyer All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Somewhere to the left of 2nd base Posts: 1,583	Market Drift and Fan Loyalty Repeat posting from a General Forum post that got no responses: I started my 2x3x8 universe carefully setting Market size to 2 through 9 for each division. My ML level uses smaller cities, no real-life major-league cities are used. One team per each of the lower 48 states. Examples: Burlington, VT. Escanaba, MI. Coeur d'Alene, ID. Fort Myers, FL. Warwick, RI. I believe the largest city I'm using is Albuquerque, NM. Each division started with one team with a market of 2, one team with a market of 3, one team with a market of 4, and so on. 35 years later, only seven teams of all 48 have a market less than 10. Loyalty, kinda the same way, but not so meticulously done, and the smaller market teams tended to have better loyalty. But several teams started with <= 2 loyalty, and only one of the smallest markets started with a loyalty of 10. 35 years later, only 4 teams have less than 10 loyalty, and three of those is 9. Is this drift financially motivated? If so, it really should be the other way around. If a teams makes x amount of dollars, it's market shouldn't be set by the game to y. Update: In 1986, I went through all 48 teams and reset their Markets and Loyalty. Now, in 1988, all Loyalties are back to where they were before (10, with a few 7-9). But even more strange, in the text on the Financials tab, a team with 0 market (Escanaba) has 10 Loyalty, but the text reads "Non-existant loyalty." A quick perusal of other teams shows the Loyalty text matches the Market text, word for word, no matter what the Loyalty rating really is. __________________ MWT Did Tennesee Delaware Mississppi's New Jersey? Idaho ... Alaska!

06-19-2006, 12:06 PM	#2 (permalink)
SSG Troyer All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Somewhere to the left of 2nd base Posts: 1,583	bump __________________ MWT Did Tennesee Delaware Mississppi's New Jersey? Idaho ... Alaska!

06-21-2006, 01:25 PM	#3 (permalink)
SSG Troyer All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Somewhere to the left of 2nd base Posts: 1,583	Bump #2 Look, I'm gonna keep bumping this until someone asks me for whatever they need to duplicate ... __________________ MWT Did Tennesee Delaware Mississppi's New Jersey? Idaho ... Alaska!

07-24-2006, 02:22 PM	#9 (permalink)
SSG Troyer All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Somewhere to the left of 2nd base Posts: 1,583	Yes, sir. It is. Edit: And, in 1995, Escanaba's Market is still 0, Loyalty still 10, and the text in the Financial tab reads both references as "Non-existant". Edit #2: Though, I must add that I have not advanced a season since the patching process started ... __________________ MWT Did Tennesee Delaware Mississppi's New Jersey? Idaho ... Alaska! Last edited by SSG Troyer; 07-24-2006 at 02:29 PM.

07-24-2006, 02:35 PM	#11 (permalink)
SSG Troyer All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Somewhere to the left of 2nd base Posts: 1,583	Yes, though since resetting everything 9 game-years ago, there are still a number of teams with Markets less than 7 (Escananba's is still 0), though better than half have Loyalties 9 or greater. I would estimate it takes >25 years for the whole system to become unplayably polarized, requiring a reset ... Edit #2: There is one team, Rapid City, which has seen a Loyalty drop, and that does appear to be performance related, since they havent finished above 4th since their last playoff appearance in 1973 ... But, in total, since the reset 9 years ago, when 16 teams were set to a Loyalty of 8 or better, 29 are now in that range ... __________________ MWT Did Tennesee Delaware Mississppi's New Jersey? Idaho ... Alaska! Last edited by SSG Troyer; 07-24-2006 at 02:54 PM.

06-21-2006, 04:06 PM	#4 (permalink)
Raidergoo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: 39.84 N -84.12 W Posts: 8,327 Thanked 53x in 36 posts	I have asked if this is a bug or is by design.

06-21-2006, 08:49 PM	#5 (permalink)
jbsnadb All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 1,005 Thanked 1x in 1 post	I have a team with a "Tiny" market and "Pathetic Loyalty" drawing 600 more per game on average than the stadium holds.

07-16-2006, 10:26 PM	#6 (permalink)
battists OOTP Developments Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 17,024 Blog Entries: 7 Thanked 703x in 194 posts	SSG, I'm sorry this got swept under the rug for so long. I'd still like to figure out if this is an issue, but obviously, you posted this before 1.0.2 was released. Do you have some time to try to confirm that this is an issue in 1.0.2? Thanks, Steve

07-23-2006, 11:18 PM	#7 (permalink)
battists OOTP Developments Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 17,024 Blog Entries: 7 Thanked 703x in 194 posts	We have a rule that states that Tech Support threads wherein we have not received a response within 7 days will be closed. This one meets this criteria, so I'm closing this. If you want to discuss it again, just PM me with the thread link, and I'll re-open. (Don't just say "Hey, reopen my thread." I need to know the URL, thanks!) Steve

07-24-2006, 02:22 PM	#8 (permalink)
battists OOTP Developments Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 17,024 Blog Entries: 7 Thanked 703x in 194 posts	Re-opened per SSG's request. SSG, is the game still behaving in this way in the most recent patch? Thanks, Steve

07-24-2006, 02:28 PM	#10 (permalink)
battists OOTP Developments Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 17,024 Blog Entries: 7 Thanked 703x in 194 posts	SSG, is it a fair synopsis of your point to say this? Generally, team loyalty and market size grow over time, to a point where barely any teams have loyalty or ratings size less than 9 or 10. This appears to be largely unaffected by team performance.

07-24-2006, 02:43 PM	#12 (permalink)
SSG Troyer All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Somewhere to the left of 2nd base Posts: 1,583	To add: The text issue in the Front Office tab seems to be both phrases are keyed to Market size. The Loyalty phrase keys to the Market value, as noted by Reno, which has a Loyalty of 4 (started 2) and a Market of 7 (started 6), and reads Market as "Rather Big" and Loyalty as "Good". __________________ MWT Did Tennesee Delaware Mississppi's New Jersey? Idaho ... Alaska!

07-24-2006, 02:54 PM	#13 (permalink)
battists OOTP Developments Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 17,024 Blog Entries: 7 Thanked 703x in 194 posts	I have logged the text issue (Loyalty value based on Market size) as TT # 2411. I have logged the market drift issue as TT # 2412. Thanks, Steve

07-24-2006, 02:57 PM	#14 (permalink)
SSG Troyer All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Somewhere to the left of 2nd base Posts: 1,583	Thank you. __________________ MWT Did Tennesee Delaware Mississppi's New Jersey? Idaho ... Alaska!

08-18-2006, 04:04 PM	#15 (permalink)
battists OOTP Developments Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 17,024 Blog Entries: 7 Thanked 703x in 194 posts	Markus has claimed that this issue will be fixed in 1.0.3. However, we have not yet received a test version of 1.0.3 with which to verify. Thanks very much, Steve

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