Waivers Concern

[endgame]

I play a Clean Slate solo league. That is, No Service times, no histories, and everyone basically starts with a clean slate as a rookie to the league. I am playing with the latest beta patch (2) as of today. I play out all my games and I'm, roughly, in mid-May. Today, I saw the first player appear on the waiver wire. He'd been signed the same day by another team. I claimed him.

Question is this, when I sign a Free Agent - under the new patch - it now looks like he goes directly to DFA and I am able to assign him to any level, provided he remains on the 40-Man without waiver restriction. Why would the AI's player of mention be put on waivers? I do not find any indication that he was on or being removed from their 40-Man. On the surface, it appears he was signed and then promptly moved to DFA and also placed on waivers. I find no supporting engine rationale for that move.

[Nutlaw]

Did that team already have its 40-man roster full?

[endgame]

Originally Posted by Nutlaw

Did that team already have its 40-man roster full?

No. It had, and still has, 32 players.

[Nutlaw]

Hrm. Was it a really bad player? Did he have a major league contract?

[endgame]

Originally Posted by endgame

Today, I saw the first player appear on the waiver wire. He'd been signed the same day by another team.

Originally Posted by Nutlaw

Hrm. Was it a really bad player? Did he have a major league contract?

He was signed by this team (to a major league contract - his first) then put on DFA and waivers the very same day with room on their 40-Man.

[endgame]

dola,

On closer inspection, I found what may be related to this anomaly. I use the word anomaly because until now, there have been no waivers (as I expected) and all teams have been able to successfully sign FAs without this result. He's from Guatemala. The entire league, currently, originates in the USA. As far as I can tell, he is the first international player to surface, causing me to think this player was 'discovered' by the signing team. Just why he should be treated differently with regard to transactions remains a mystery. But it is the only difference I can find from all previous transactions to date.

[Nutlaw]

Do you have any foreign player limits activated?

[endgame]

Originally Posted by Nutlaw

Do you have any foreign player limits activated?

I believe the creation limits were set at 0%. As to active roster limits, I'll check, but I don't think so. In any event, what does it matter? There was room on the 40-Man. There's no reason the same day signing and waiver should have taken place in this case.

Maybe it will end up being a rare occurence. On the other hand, it seems like waivers and DFA is a subject that will forever be discussed and each example interrogated. Frankly, I'm ready to give up the discussion or making observations in this area or, for that matter, any other. It is what it is, everyone has a theory or speculation about this or that every time the subject is broached. It's better. Maybe we should just leave it at that, eh?

[Nutlaw]

Originally Posted by endgame

I believe the creation limits were set at 0%. As to active roster limits, I'll check, but I don't think so. In any event, what does it matter? There was room on the 40-Man. There's no reason the same day signing and waiver should have taken place in this case.

Maybe it will end up being a rare occurence. On the other hand, it seems like waivers and DFA is a subject that will forever be discussed and each example interrogated. Frankly, I'm ready to give up the discussion or making observations in this area or, for that matter, any other. It is what it is, everyone has a theory or speculation about this or that every time the subject is broached. It's better. Maybe we should just leave it at that, eh?

I'm sorry that this discussion has upset you. I am merely attempting to ascertain the nature of this problem so that I can properly log it. If we can't figure out why it happened, it will be tough for Markus to fix the problem.

If the team was not allowed to have foreign players on its major league squad, then maybe it dropped the player for that reason. If that was the case, the player shouldn't have been signed in the first place. That's a different problem than teams signing and dropping players on the basis of their ability.

[endgame]

I'm not frustrated with you, Nutlaw, or the discussion. It's that both the bane and the benefit of the re-write is its complexity, while still housing some of the same old haunts - albeit more discreetly - that we've battled previously in its predecessor. Waivers, at their very core, are simple evaluations, yet we have addressed them nearly as often as the indestructible Sign-and-Release. The Clean Slate league should serve to demonstrate transaction dilemmas more visibly than others.

Players have no service times and all options remaining. As a consequence, the only waivers I expect to see are the result of signings that later - for whatever reason known or unknown - cause the signing team to want to remove that player from the 40-Man. I might even be persuaded to accept that, in theory, a team could put a player in these situations on waivers as it pleases. But some appropriate accompanying rationale should prevail. In the case I've put forward for examination, a sign one day - waiver same day - with 40-Man room, simply doesn't make sense. As you've rightly indicated, it may betray a signing decision problem in addition, but it doesn't eliminate the obvious symptom - that being the case - that an improper or unusual (at best) use of the waiver system is being employed. Now that we've ruled out foreign player influence, which I remind you is only applicable to the active roster, I can't see a reason to delay TT'ing this example. Is it likely related to the foreign status? I think so, in light of the fact it hasn't happened in ANY other case yet. Is it conclusive? I don't think so. But IMHO, the inappropriate use of the waiver system is obvious here, with or without demonstrable cause.

On the complexity note, software is software. It's sometimes difficult for me to embrace the notion that a vehicle must undergo a 120-point system check in order to determine if the flat tire is related in any way to its engine. While not the perfect metaphor, it approaches it. I'd be uncomfortable to discover that some inconsistency or anamoly, after thorough examination, was the result of a simple and preventable toggle or setting. But it's the nature of the beast and we're all, to return to the inadequate comparison, under warranty so what's the real harm? I'll surrender to its occasional unexplained noise.

Originally Posted by Nutlaw

If we can't figure out why it happened, it will be tough for Markus to fix the problem.

And part of Markus's review of a TT should be figuring out why it happened. Actually, he's the one more likely to be able to speculate a cause.

[Nutlaw]

Okay. I went ahead and logged this issue as TT 3596.

Now, please realize that a likely response to this TT will be that Markus has not seen this behavior and cannot recreate it. We have informed him that this problem has occurred, but we have not fully explored the circumstances and settings which likely caused it. The waiver AI is fairly complex and unexpected results can occur when unusual combinations of settings and circumstances are applied.

I myself have spent many hours exploring this exact issue in early builds - waiver behavior with clean slate leagues. I can assure you that productive solutions are much less likely to be found when one merely states that a problem has happened and does not attempt to discover the exact circumstances in which that problem happened.

If you are interested in seeing this issue resolved, then yes it would potentially be useful to know if foreign players are prevented from joining active rosters in your league. Maybe the AI waives players from its 40-man roster who it knows will never be able to assist its major league team. Maybe the AI waives players who it tries to promote to the active roster and cannot due to such rules.

However, should you prefer, you could FTP your .dat files and let us know what you have named your file. Some information can be gathered from that method as well.

How to FTP Files to Us

[endgame]

Originally Posted by Nutlaw

it would potentially be useful to know if foreign players are prevented from joining active rosters in your league. Maybe the AI waives players from its 40-man roster who it knows will never be able to assist its major league team.

There are no foreign limits in place other than the original zero percent creation percentage for the parent league.

Originally Posted by Nutlaw

However, should you prefer, you could FTP your .dat files and let us know what you have named your file. Some information can be gathered from that method as well.

How to FTP Files to Us

I'll do this as well over the weekend, if you think it may help. Thank you for your efforts.

[endgame]

The zip file endgame.zip has been uploaded to the public ftp site. See the Hector Romo transaction under West Monroe Men of War for May 10th. This is the only player to surface in the league who is not from the USA; the only distinction I have noted. I manage the Norborne Grays and have since claimed him and assigned him to AAA.

[Nutlaw]

Okay, thanks. I've added that to the TT.

[endgame]

Originally Posted by Nutlaw

Okay, thanks. I've added that to the TT.

Want to piggyback this TT with another example under a different league. Same criteria applies. It's a clean slate league. You can see the service times and options, etc... are all cleared.

This ties into the idea that the AI seems to have more limitations than the human player. Maybe that's why some of these waivers transpire. Traded Giles to Barnegat Light (an AI team), where he was put on the DFA, as was the player/s I traded for on my own transaction page. However, if I want to move a player with a major league contract to AAA, I can simply ensure his on the 40-Man roster and either drag him there or use the Transaction right-click (which is my usual method) and can do so without having to clear waivers. On the other hand, the AI 'seems' to have to use the waiver wire in order to move its player to AAA rather than Active Roster when the limitation - under these conditions - should simply not exist.

In later seasons, when either his service time merits right of refusal or his options have expired, I can see the team perhaps wanting to move him in this channel, but not in the first 2-3 years in this setting. He was obviously AAA-bound. That's where they put him, as you can see, and he's not happy about it. But they could have moved him there directly.

Edit: On closer inspection, I need to comment that not only did they move him to AAA, but removed him from the 40-Man. Now this becomes very interesting. In the past, the game mandated that anyone with a major league contract be assigned to the 40-Man. However, we argued - some of us - that 'optioning' a player to the minors - provided he clears waivers and did not have service time accumulated to refuse the assignment - should be allowed. Unless this is not WAD, it's working like some of us hoped it would eventually. I'm simply not sure. But at least I can understand this one and, in actuality, feel good about it if it's designed to work this way. So it's an FYI and a RFI (Request for Information) post. Fascinating. Thanks for the ear and attention. I know I'm waiver-fixated, but this may actually please me!

[Nutlaw]

This has been marked as behavior that cannot be reproduced.