Why my solo leagues end...

dodgecharger1968 · 01-16-2006, 06:04 AM

I just started up yet another new solo league, and it occurred to me why it's always a new league. You get six, seven years in: a good 40 of the top 50 prospects are in your farm system; your 3A roster would win the series hands down, your 2A team could compete for 1st place at the major league level, and your big league season is a disappointment if you can't win 130; you're making $120,000,000+, your payroll is maybe $90m, you can't spend cash quick enough. In fact a couple times I've prolonged the existence of a couple of leagues by starting expansion teams and emptying the farm system onto them. The most rewarding league I ever had was one with no trades or financials, just developing your own draft picks and occasionally the castaways of other organizations (even so, the big loophole was the guys the AI gives up on too quick). And of course the online league, which is refreshingly impossible to dominate at that level.

My point is not that there is no challenge, because any system is bound to be simple to beat once you figure out how it works. The big problem that I would like to see addressed is that there is no goal in the game challenging enough. Even some cheesy point system would be a nice addition, though I wouldn't mind seeing something a little more in depth. But it takes a lot of work to put together a great team, and a lot of work to maintain it while everyone is trying to jump ship in the Rule 5 and MLFA, or testing the market, etc. It's almost a punishment to have such a good team, and I'd like to find some way to make it more worthwhile than just a string of recordsetting seasons. Does anyone else find that solo leagues are unnecessarily hollow and that it could be somewhat improved in the new version?

Erik · 01-16-2006, 11:49 AM

There are some things you can do personally to make it more challenging. Such trying to maintain one of the lowest payrolls in the league and still winning. Or never signing any free agents, but just use ammy drafts and trades to better your team.

I know where you are coming from though. I am in my 5th season and have been in the playoffs all 5 years. I have only won the world series once however. I have not won 100 games yet in any season. However it seems like whenever my team is doing bad, the rest of the teams in my division are bad as well. I started one season out going something like 14-30 and I was still only in 3rd place. Eventually the bats heated up and I won the division. On the other hand, like in my season now, my team is off to a 37-19 start, but only a few games up on the next few teams down in my division. It almost seems like my team is controlling the way the rest of the teams in my division play every year!

Also I agree with the prospects part. I have never had a high draft pick in the ammy draft, yet I have the top minor league system. I'd love to toot my own horn for picking rare gems or something, but its really just a matter of the computer dropping players and I pick them up.

Mike Donlin · 01-16-2006, 12:56 PM

Try to limit the number of trades you make. I limit myself to no more than two a year; also, limit the number of players per trade--no more than three on each side. This keeps you from accumulating talent and taking advantage of the AI, and it's more realistic since most teams don't trade nearly as often as the wheeling and dealing human GMs.

dodgecharger1968 · 01-16-2006, 04:43 PM

I know, I know. The honor system. I could beat a lot of my bad habits if I castrated myself, too, but I'm not gonna do it. I WANT my team to win 140, to make ungodly sums of money, and to have a ridiculously good farm system. I just want some sort of recognition from the game that I'm doing something good, not just making my life harder.

cephasjames · 01-16-2006, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Donlin

Try to limit the number of trades you make. I limit myself to no more than two a year; also, limit the number of players per trade--no more than three on each side. This keeps you from accumulating talent and taking advantage of the AI, and it's more realistic since most teams don't trade nearly as often as the wheeling and dealing human GMs.

Isn't it silly that we should need to do things like this to make it challenging? Don't get me wrong, this is the best baseball sim, handsdown, but it does get a little frustrating when we can kick the crap out of the game like that.

dankrzyz · 01-17-2006, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cephasjames

...but it does get a little frustrating when we can kick the crap out of the game like that.

I agree completely. While 115+ wins almost year is impressive, it's not exactly challenging in the long run.

Mike Donlin · 01-17-2006, 12:14 PM

It doesn't bother me so much anymore. Unless we're playing Deep Blue, human intelligecne is smarter than AI. That the game can still be made challenging, fun, and realistic despite this is what is surprising.

:Glass half full:

cephasjames · 01-17-2006, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Donlin

:Glass half full:

That's enough of that, young man.

Now, because I feel convicted over your whole "positive-attitude-thing," I do agree. This is an awesome game that I have enjoyed for hours on end ever since I picked it up as Season Ticket Baseball. I have stopped playing all other baseball games/sims because this is such a good game and it's very unlikely that I'll play anything else.

dodgecharger1968 · 01-17-2006, 06:39 PM

Realistically, any game that's playable at all will eventually be dominated. Can you think of any game you like that can still challenge you? You keep playing for various reasons, but not for the challenge. And I'm ok with that. I just wish there were more of those various reasons, more game recorded benchmarks, things like that. It's really just a small thing, not a big suggestion.

jm47048 · 01-17-2006, 06:47 PM

What I do is let the game manage my minors. And I keep each of them at least 25 players in each level. Then what I do is I sign the crappiest players. It's cool to watch them grow and it is more challenging this way.

JoeRockHead · 01-18-2006, 03:02 AM

One think I enjoy most, and never get tired of is building new leagues. I like to come up with new projects,and building a league either a historical, fictional and historic mix, or totally fictional is a lot of fun for me. That keeps the solo part of the game an interest.

Malleus Dei · 01-18-2006, 09:39 AM

In this aspect OOTP is like life. You have to decide on your own goals, and then determine your own level of satisfaction with how you met them or how close you came to meeting them.

Personally I have achieved and accomplished everything in my life that I set out to do. Does this mean that I am bored with life? Heck, no, there's plenty of other things to do, some of them unanticipated. Just meeting all of the goals that I had didn't make me bored.

Likewise OOTP.

disposableheros · 01-18-2006, 02:56 PM

personal 80mil payroll cap, no cap for the AI
personal 10mil cash cap, no cap for the AI
1-5 talent scale
actual ratings and scouts/coaches off
dont claim the spects the AI waives
dont initiate trades

now, come back and tell me you have 40 of the top 50 spects and win 130 every year

dodgecharger1968 · 01-18-2006, 04:16 PM

Well, cut off one foot, shoot a large dose of novacaine into your tongue to start every day, wear cokebottle galsses, and limit yourself to 4000 calories a week, and I bet you don't reach all of the personal goals you ever hoped to achieve in life, either. I'm not looking to handicap myself, that doesn't make the game fun. It doesn't make anything fun.

To address the other, setting goals is the hardest part of life. I don't want to revisit that with my leisure. Besides, I'd actually like to WIN the game, so why use the same approach I take toward life (heh)?

Maybe it's just me, but I set goals like "go .800", not "find a way to let the AI beat me". And I can accept that there needs to be more to it for me than just meeting my goals, but that's the thing about games, any games. You don't set the goals; they are well defined.

disposableheros · 01-18-2006, 04:28 PM

if you dont handicap yourself, you are SOL.

artificial intelligence is just not strong enough to match human intelligence. especially one based on mathematical formulas.

MogulChamp · 01-18-2006, 04:50 PM

I asked this very same question, and got a couple good answers...

Suggestions for making Solo Leagues more challenging

dodgecharger1968 · 01-18-2006, 06:20 PM

Well, I know what all you guys are saying. And it's just in how you draw the line. I mean, someone might consider it acceptable to edit all of your players since the game lets you, I like to take full advantage of the AI deficiencies, and others feel that even equal footing is unfair.

I think the game challenges me. Winning 135, 140 games is a challenge. Assembling and maintaining a ridiculously good team is a lot of hard work. It's not the same sort of challenge as making the best of a poor hand, or as learning the ropes (which are the more fun challenges). I just don't feel like I'm working toward something when I get to that point. I'm desperately clinging to my status as an .850 team with .900 farm teams. Maybe that is just the natural end of a solo league, the point where improvement becomes impossible. Only it seems to me that somehow something could be built in, outside the paradigm of the gameplay itself, to motivate you to continue to excel. Like in Civ, where even once you know you have control of the game, you're willing to put in 45 minutes a turn just to see how big and prosperous a civilization you can build; it bogs you down, but at least you're always working toward something, right up to the end. I agree that there is no good way to put the AI on an equal footing without ruining the game (though some things could certainly be addressed), I just want to feel GOOD that I'm beating it! I want to feel compelled to watch my favorite guys play 18 years and hit 600 HR, instead of losing interest and quitting while they're 31.

RchW · 01-18-2006, 07:10 PM

Obviously I'm not as good at the game as you. My goal is to win 6 WS in a row. In 27 sim years I am 9-4 in WS with 6 out of 7 at one point. I have a few house rules but nothing hard and fast. One thing I don't do is search the waiver wire for every prospect the AI puts there. If I need something and it's available that is fine. I keep the team competitive by trading guys who make excessive salary demands, but no 2 for 1 or 3 for 1 deals. I don't manage the minors in detail so generally my farm system is in the lower half of the league.

I like the idea of being dominant but not a lock. Your type of dominance would bore me too.

Edit
Oh forgot to ask. Are you playing talent only, no stars? It really helps.

dodgecharger1968 · 01-18-2006, 09:20 PM

I don't search the waivers, not as a rule but because it's as boring as hell. I also try to sim fast rather than micromanage, so I don't get bogged down in the details. But sooner or later they get you... I have tried a lot of ways to handicap myself, actually, and they usually take all the fun out of the game. I never said it's not fun winning big, I just wish I could point in the game at something and say, "There, take that!"

chippered · 01-19-2006, 09:54 AM

-$35 million cap for me/none for the cpu.
-One "franchise" player not counting against my cap so I can keep one favorite player. Franchise tag lasts for life of contract.
-I can initiate one trade per year but accept any cpu offers.
-Can only initiate one for one trades.
-Limited to one waiver pickup per year.
-Talent only 1-8

There are probably more i'm not thinking of at the moment, but this makes things fun for me. I still win a fair number of games, finishing first in my division the last four years and heading for another division winner. However, after this year I will likely start a downward trend for a couple of years as my talent will be entering free agency. I find that my teams finishes fluctuate as the talent I draft becomes ready for the bigs. I have a pretty decent time building and rebuilding this way.

01-16-2006, 06:04 AM	#1 (permalink)
dodgecharger1968 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 223	Why my solo leagues end... I just started up yet another new solo league, and it occurred to me why it's always a new league. You get six, seven years in: a good 40 of the top 50 prospects are in your farm system; your 3A roster would win the series hands down, your 2A team could compete for 1st place at the major league level, and your big league season is a disappointment if you can't win 130; you're making $120,000,000+, your payroll is maybe $90m, you can't spend cash quick enough. In fact a couple times I've prolonged the existence of a couple of leagues by starting expansion teams and emptying the farm system onto them. The most rewarding league I ever had was one with no trades or financials, just developing your own draft picks and occasionally the castaways of other organizations (even so, the big loophole was the guys the AI gives up on too quick). And of course the online league, which is refreshingly impossible to dominate at that level. My point is not that there is no challenge, because any system is bound to be simple to beat once you figure out how it works. The big problem that I would like to see addressed is that there is no goal in the game challenging enough. Even some cheesy point system would be a nice addition, though I wouldn't mind seeing something a little more in depth. But it takes a lot of work to put together a great team, and a lot of work to maintain it while everyone is trying to jump ship in the Rule 5 and MLFA, or testing the market, etc. It's almost a punishment to have such a good team, and I'd like to find some way to make it more worthwhile than just a string of recordsetting seasons. Does anyone else find that solo leagues are unnecessarily hollow and that it could be somewhat improved in the new version?

01-16-2006, 11:49 AM	#2 (permalink)
Erik Minors (Double A) Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 184	There are some things you can do personally to make it more challenging. Such trying to maintain one of the lowest payrolls in the league and still winning. Or never signing any free agents, but just use ammy drafts and trades to better your team. I know where you are coming from though. I am in my 5th season and have been in the playoffs all 5 years. I have only won the world series once however. I have not won 100 games yet in any season. However it seems like whenever my team is doing bad, the rest of the teams in my division are bad as well. I started one season out going something like 14-30 and I was still only in 3rd place. Eventually the bats heated up and I won the division. On the other hand, like in my season now, my team is off to a 37-19 start, but only a few games up on the next few teams down in my division. It almost seems like my team is controlling the way the rest of the teams in my division play every year! Also I agree with the prospects part. I have never had a high draft pick in the ammy draft, yet I have the top minor league system. I'd love to toot my own horn for picking rare gems or something, but its really just a matter of the computer dropping players and I pick them up. __________________ "Life is a series of accidents; as are we all." -- Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

01-17-2006, 06:47 PM	#10 (permalink)
jm47048 All Star Starter Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 1,190	What I do is let the game manage my minors. And I keep each of them at least 25 players in each level. Then what I do is I sign the crappiest players. It's cool to watch them grow and it is more challenging this way. __________________ The New York Yankees World Series Champions 1923, 1927, 1928, 1932, 1936, 1937, 1938, 1939, 1941, 1943, 1947, 1949, 1950, 1951, 1952, 1953, 1956, 1958, 1961, 1962, 1977, 1978, 1996, 1998, 1999, 2000 American League Champions 1921, 1922, 1923, 1926, 1927, 1928, 1932, 1936, 1937, 1938, 1939, 1941, 1942, 1943, 1947, 1949, 1950, 1951, 1952, 1953, 1955, 1956, 1957, 1958, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1976, 1977, 1978, 1981, 1996, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2003

01-18-2006, 03:02 AM	#11 (permalink)
JoeRockHead Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: NorthCarolina Posts: 260	One think I enjoy most, and never get tired of is building new leagues. I like to come up with new projects,and building a league either a historical, fictional and historic mix, or totally fictional is a lot of fun for me. That keeps the solo part of the game an interest. __________________ Regards:John Nellis Last edited by JoeRockHead : 01-18-2006 at 03:05 AM.

01-18-2006, 09:39 AM	#12 (permalink)
Malleus Dei Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Lurking Posts: 7,484	In this aspect OOTP is like life. You have to decide on your own goals, and then determine your own level of satisfaction with how you met them or how close you came to meeting them. Personally I have achieved and accomplished everything in my life that I set out to do. Does this mean that I am bored with life? Heck, no, there's plenty of other things to do, some of them unanticipated. Just meeting all of the goals that I had didn't make me bored. Likewise OOTP. __________________ Senior member of the OOTP boards/former mod maker/surly bastage "If you're stuck, think WWGFD - what would Gordon Freeman do?"

01-16-2006, 12:56 PM	#3 (permalink)
Mike Donlin All Star Reserve Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Feeling the Illinoise! Posts: 706	Try to limit the number of trades you make. I limit myself to no more than two a year; also, limit the number of players per trade--no more than three on each side. This keeps you from accumulating talent and taking advantage of the AI, and it's more realistic since most teams don't trade nearly as often as the wheeling and dealing human GMs.

01-16-2006, 04:43 PM	#4 (permalink)
dodgecharger1968 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 223	I know, I know. The honor system. I could beat a lot of my bad habits if I castrated myself, too, but I'm not gonna do it. I WANT my team to win 140, to make ungodly sums of money, and to have a ridiculously good farm system. I just want some sort of recognition from the game that I'm doing something good, not just making my life harder.

01-17-2006, 12:14 PM	#7 (permalink)
Mike Donlin All Star Reserve Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Feeling the Illinoise! Posts: 706	It doesn't bother me so much anymore. Unless we're playing Deep Blue, human intelligecne is smarter than AI. That the game can still be made challenging, fun, and realistic despite this is what is surprising. :Glass half full:

01-17-2006, 06:39 PM	#9 (permalink)
dodgecharger1968 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 223	Realistically, any game that's playable at all will eventually be dominated. Can you think of any game you like that can still challenge you? You keep playing for various reasons, but not for the challenge. And I'm ok with that. I just wish there were more of those various reasons, more game recorded benchmarks, things like that. It's really just a small thing, not a big suggestion.

01-18-2006, 02:56 PM	#13 (permalink)
disposableheros Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 4,339	personal 80mil payroll cap, no cap for the AI personal 10mil cash cap, no cap for the AI 1-5 talent scale actual ratings and scouts/coaches off dont claim the spects the AI waives dont initiate trades now, come back and tell me you have 40 of the top 50 spects and win 130 every year __________________ 2 Wild Cards, 11 Division Champs, 4 League Champs, 3 World Champs, and 3 Best GM awards Baseball Maelstrom - New York Mets - 180-149 .547 Corporate League Baseball - Coke Buzz - 889-649 .578 Western Hemisphere Baseball League - Santiago Saints - 672-793 .459 Record - 2428-2271 .517

01-18-2006, 04:16 PM	#14 (permalink)
dodgecharger1968 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 223	Well, cut off one foot, shoot a large dose of novacaine into your tongue to start every day, wear cokebottle galsses, and limit yourself to 4000 calories a week, and I bet you don't reach all of the personal goals you ever hoped to achieve in life, either. I'm not looking to handicap myself, that doesn't make the game fun. It doesn't make anything fun. To address the other, setting goals is the hardest part of life. I don't want to revisit that with my leisure. Besides, I'd actually like to WIN the game, so why use the same approach I take toward life (heh)? Maybe it's just me, but I set goals like "go .800", not "find a way to let the AI beat me". And I can accept that there needs to be more to it for me than just meeting my goals, but that's the thing about games, any games. You don't set the goals; they are well defined.

01-18-2006, 04:28 PM	#15 (permalink)
disposableheros Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 4,339	if you dont handicap yourself, you are SOL. artificial intelligence is just not strong enough to match human intelligence. especially one based on mathematical formulas.

01-18-2006, 04:50 PM	#16 (permalink)
MogulChamp All Star Reserve Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 539	I asked this very same question, and got a couple good answers... Suggestions for making Solo Leagues more challenging

01-18-2006, 06:20 PM	#17 (permalink)
dodgecharger1968 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 223	Well, I know what all you guys are saying. And it's just in how you draw the line. I mean, someone might consider it acceptable to edit all of your players since the game lets you, I like to take full advantage of the AI deficiencies, and others feel that even equal footing is unfair. I think the game challenges me. Winning 135, 140 games is a challenge. Assembling and maintaining a ridiculously good team is a lot of hard work. It's not the same sort of challenge as making the best of a poor hand, or as learning the ropes (which are the more fun challenges). I just don't feel like I'm working toward something when I get to that point. I'm desperately clinging to my status as an .850 team with .900 farm teams. Maybe that is just the natural end of a solo league, the point where improvement becomes impossible. Only it seems to me that somehow something could be built in, outside the paradigm of the gameplay itself, to motivate you to continue to excel. Like in Civ, where even once you know you have control of the game, you're willing to put in 45 minutes a turn just to see how big and prosperous a civilization you can build; it bogs you down, but at least you're always working toward something, right up to the end. I agree that there is no good way to put the AI on an equal footing without ruining the game (though some things could certainly be addressed), I just want to feel GOOD that I'm beating it! I want to feel compelled to watch my favorite guys play 18 years and hit 600 HR, instead of losing interest and quitting while they're 31.

01-18-2006, 09:20 PM	#19 (permalink)
dodgecharger1968 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 223	I don't search the waivers, not as a rule but because it's as boring as hell. I also try to sim fast rather than micromanage, so I don't get bogged down in the details. But sooner or later they get you... I have tried a lot of ways to handicap myself, actually, and they usually take all the fun out of the game. I never said it's not fun winning big, I just wish I could point in the game at something and say, "There, take that!"

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01-19-2006, 09:54 AM	#20 (permalink)
chippered Minors (Double A) Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 185	-$35 million cap for me/none for the cpu. -One "franchise" player not counting against my cap so I can keep one favorite player. Franchise tag lasts for life of contract. -I can initiate one trade per year but accept any cpu offers. -Can only initiate one for one trades. -Limited to one waiver pickup per year. -Talent only 1-8 There are probably more i'm not thinking of at the moment, but this makes things fun for me. I still win a fair number of games, finishing first in my division the last four years and heading for another division winner. However, after this year I will likely start a downward trend for a couple of years as my talent will be entering free agency. I find that my teams finishes fluctuate as the talent I draft becomes ready for the bigs. I have a pretty decent time building and rebuilding this way.