My letter to Markus & Co. Part II

[holyroller]

Originally posted by EagleEye_0
Ultimately one really good patch that fixes most of the bugs and features will go a long way to restoring the lost faith.

That's all I ask.

[baniel1]

Originally posted by Malleus Dei
Sincerely,

The senior member of this board

In the immortal words of Pedro:

"Malleous Dei? Who is Malleus Dei? Who is he to challenge me?

Dude - seriously - that was scary to read. Get out more.

[SoxWin]

Originally posted by Henry
The point is, such language has no point or use on this board. "Liar" denotes an intentional action to decieve. That IS NOT what happened.

Anyway, if we can't discuss things in an adult manner with some reasonable tact, then nothing will get accomplished.

What about advertising waivers as a working feature when the develper knew they weren't going to work because it was "too hard" to code them properly?

Is that false advertisement (ie. not telling the truth) or overexuberance?

[silvam14]

Originally posted by EagleEye_0
It is getting ridiculous yeah. I imagine that the point has gotten through to Markus and the rest of the team, so it's probably time to cut it out. Ultimately one really good patch that fixes most of the bugs and features will go a long way to restoring the lost faith. But it is frustrating from a fan's point of view to love a game so much, but have a few problems that just kind of ruin the experience. I first posted today about the situation. A bad idea probably, as I was overly frustrated today about multiple things not ootp related.

I imagine it's not easy for Steve and Henry.

Man, I just think to say that our faith has been "lost" isn't giving Markus a lot of ground here. Its obvious he spread himself thin, and I'm pretty sure he realizes it.

This whole "Lost Faith" thing really strikes a nerve with me because I think the term is being thrown around too loosely.

I just hope that someday, if I don't happen to purchase OOTPX in the first few months of the release for one reason or another, that Markus will not have "Lost Faith" in me and decided to discontinue his game....

In Baseball terms, Markus has been near perfect in the first 7 innings. He seems to be faltering a little walking the first two batters in the eight. I am going to have faith that he'll put it together to finish out a great game! (Oh yeah, and please don't call me Grady Little..hehe)



C'mon guys. Let's lighten this party up

[rwd59]

Originally posted by silvam14
That sounds great, but I think Markus has really done a great job in general with just staying in touch now and then.

I mean, these boards should ideally be for feedback (not only positive) and help and general discussion. I don't think our money that we spend on this game gives us a right to tell markus how to program his game and demand fixes or else (or else what? is more like it)

I think these boards are a great tool for Markus to use Henry and Steve to update him on what we, the users feel are problems with the game, and which, if any direction we would like it to go.

I personally would rather have Markus spending more time nose-deep in his OOTP code fixing things, than here trying to take in every little concern I have. I TRUST <---(good word here) Henry and Steve fill him in on the very important issues and that is all I can ask.

Don't want to seem that I am jumping on everything you say but, he used to do a good job staying in touch and that is the problem many people have with the state of things right now. Before the search function was disabled I checked and he had only 2-3 posts since game was released and one of those was in off-topic. The bottom line stops with Markus, Henry and Steve say that all the time. I sit with a game that will not work at all now and linger around these Forums way too much in hopes that I can get a little help. There is no bigger showstopper than that.

[baniel1]

Originally posted by Malleus Dei
The senior member of this board

KILLLIN ME!!

WHAHAHHAHAH!!

[mad0die]

Originally posted by Marc Vaughan
PS. In case you're interested our games tend to go through an intensive 3-4 month testing cycle inhouse with between 10 and 20 full-time testers hammering them, in addition to this head researchers on the game also test and review the effects of their research (both competition/league structures and also player data/characteristics). Sega also have their own testing team and facilities which are of a comparable size to our own.
We utilise full testing plans/schedules and all that sort of stuff in order to try and have as bug-free a product as possible.

This is the best news I've heard yet about the future of OOTP. A paid testing team will be very frickin nice!

[silvam14]

Originally posted by rwd59
Don't want to seem that I am jumping on everything you say but, he used to do a good job staying in touch and that is the problem many people have with the state of things right now. Before the search function was disabled I checked and he had only 2-3 posts since game was released and one of those was in off-topic. The bottom line stops with Markus, Henry and Steve say that all the time. I sit with a game that will not work at all now and linger around these Forums way too much in hopes that I can get a little help. There is no bigger showstopper than that.

I hear you there, and believe me, If the game didn't work for me at all like it doesn't for you, I would probably be singing a different tune. As it is, unfortunately, the game seems to work for most people (at least it doesn't constantly crash) so I am more or less responding based on that fact....sorry guy.

[silvam14]

Originally posted by baniel1


KILLLIN ME!!

WHAHAHHAHAH!!

A little late to the party?

[Rizon]

In the hood, all our feelings could be summed up like this:

"Just handle your ****. Thats all. Just handle it"

[treedom]

Originally posted by silvam14
This whole "Lost Faith" thing really strikes a nerve with me because I think the term is being thrown around too loosely.

I preordered. I won't preorder again. So yeah, I've lost a little faith. While I'm not shouting for my money back nor declaring that I'll never buy anything from this company again, future OOTP purchases are no longer a sure thing for me, like they were with v5 and v6. I wanna see the goods up front next time.

[silvam14]

Originally posted by treedom
I preordered. I won't preorder again. So yeah, I've lost a little faith. While I'm not shouting for my money back nor declaring that I'll never buy anything from this company again, future OOTP purchases are no longer a sure thing for me, like they were with v5 and v6. I wanna see the goods up front next time.

That's fair Tree, I just don't like when people are ready to jump ship after the game had been released for only 2 months and we already have got 2 patches out of the way. That's not shabby service.

Besides, I didn't pre-order, paid more than you, and am still playing the same game as you so I think you got a steal. It all deoends on how you look at it I guess

[Malleus Dei]

Well, I found out what I wanted to find out, and SI responded, and I have been assured that the issues I raised will get passed onto Markus. That's about all I could ask for.

But so many of you failed to honor a simple, polite request to leave all the crap out of a serious thread on a critical issue, that I am ashamed of and for many of you. This wasn't an ordinary thread, and it shouldn't have been subject to grade-school-level badinage.

If Henry wasn't on sabbatical I'd ask him to close the thread now.

[silvam14]

Originally posted by Malleus Dei
Well, I found out what I wanted to find out, and SI responded, and I have been assured that the issues I raised will get passed onto Markus. That's about all I could ask for.

But so many of you failed to honor a simple, polite request to leave all the crap out of a serious thread on a critical issue, that I am ashamed of and for many of you. This wasn't an ordinary thread, and it shouldn't have been subject to grade-school-level badinage.

If Henry wasn't on sabbatical I'd ask him to close the thread now.

I think this one is faring much better than you're first one though. :P

[tripli00]

Originally posted by CommishJoe
I'll say it again, I am not nearly arrogant enough to think that I can tell Markus how to run his company. Then again, I would never dream of calling myself "the" senior member either, but that's just me. This is Markus' baby. To think that he would abandon something that he's invested so many years of his life to is just plain stupid.

Does OOTP have issues? Yes. Do I believe they will get resolved? Yes. Does the SI merger scare me? When I first found out, a bit. But, as I took the time to get more informed about it, I started to believe this was a great thing. At the very least, the beta testing phase(which I have been a part of since OOTP3) will be formalized, which by itself is great news.

It's very easy to highlight the weaknesses in anything and scream the sky is falling. It doesn't take a lot of time nor research to follow that path. The harder path to take is the one who enjoys the strengths, while dealing with the weaknesses in a constructive manner. Each of us can choose which path to follow, or of course, to not buy the game. I, for one, plan to continue to support the game and it's community the best I can.

Guys - not wanting to hammer home a point - but this board moves fast (which is good) and lets look at this from a little further out.

Markcus can do whatever he, and now SI want to do with the game. He owns it, the ideas, and is probably the only one here who could and does make it work. HOw many of us have tried to develop software of some type. Its NOT easier - the when to stop developing debate is well . . . . .impossible.

Okay OOTP 6 may have a few problems - name one game that we like that doesn't then look at this again. All games that are released on a regular basis have good and bad versions - especially when new engines are involved. We as a community have the right to say what we think - both here on the boars and through our wallets. But its game evolution. Slowly things get better - and sometimes things go wrong.

Unitl now Markus has had to run this all himself. He now has SI to help and formalise. Professional testing, manuals writtem prior to release, helpdesk etc. In the big picture OOTP hs just made it to the major leagues, it was always a 5 star prospect - and now is getting the major league salary - and will get more fans due to that. Personally give it two years - it will be worth it,

An for Markus reading the boards, yes he may have done this a lot when the game was young - he had to and wanted to. Now he has to back away a little, if he spent all day / night with us then when would he do what we all ask. Thats why Henry Steve and the mods are here. THis is his life his work let HIM do it.

And lastly - if we complain so much then what does that really mena - its actually damn good (much better than the rest) and all we want to do is help - although sometimes we whine. Hey we are an impatient community - thats what message boards do to us!

Lets not run screming away - when we know we are all going to be back. But also lets not keep saying things - else who will every hear!

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally posted by SoxWin
What about advertising waivers as a working feature when the develper knew they weren't going to work because it was "too hard" to code them properly?

Waivers do work - it's just that they don't work exactly like they do in Major League Baseball.

There's a difference.

Given the number of other things in the game that operate somewhat differently from how MLB handles them, I don't find the waiver issue to fall into the categorization that you've assigned to it.

For perfectly valid technical reasons, waivers were implemented using a slightly different rule set than MLB uses. I remember reading a post on another forum from TPF's developer that illustrated this type of problem very well when he was talking about how a roster rule worked different in the game than it did in the NFL because of the same kind of programming issues.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally posted by silvam14
I was ready to ask you Mike D about how you could draw such a drastic conclusion based on that quote, but upon re-reading it, It does kind of scare me now that SI is turning a "blind eye" towards his work on OOTP6 as if there shouldn't be any. All of this time I was assuming that OOTP6 would get fine-tuned for the next 3-6 months, and then spend the full year on OOTP7. I am still holding out hope that this is the case. Otherwise, it may well be a very LONG wait until fall/winter 2005..... (Geez I hate sounding like that)
edit.... upon re-reading it again, I am privately hoping that Markus dedicates all of his time "out of office" to fixing the OOTP6 existing bugs (or at least the important ones) Although, I know this is only a pipe dream as a guy has to have a life.

What I indicated was simply fact (sorry if it offended anyone) ...

Markus is working with us on a new title (OOTP7/OOTP:FE/whatever) ... SI are in no way involved with any previous products which Markus has produced and will recieve no revenue from such things, thus from a business point of view we obviously shouldn't be funding them ... (well duh ) ...

However the strength of the community and the support Markus has given his products was one of the reasons that I wanted to work with him, so despite the fact that it doesn't 'directly' help SI I am happy for him to do some support work for previous OOTP inhouse at SI.

I'm sure that support for the game will continue beyond this - however it is obviously entirely up to Markus with regards to this and obviously he does have a new game to work on

Hope this helps,

Marc

[silvam14]

Originally posted by Marc Vaughan
What I indicated was simply fact (sorry if it offended anyone) ...

Markus is working with us on a new title (OOTP7/OOTP:FE/whatever) ... SI are in no way involved with any previous products which Markus has produced and will recieve no revenue from such things, thus from a business point of view we obviously shouldn't be funding them ... (well duh ) ...

However the strength of the community and the support Markus has given his products was one of the reasons that I wanted to work with him, so despite the fact that it doesn't 'directly' help SI I am happy for him to do some support work for previous OOTP inhouse at SI.

I'm sure that support for the game will continue beyond this - however it is obviously entirely up to Markus with regards to this and obviously he does have a new game to work on

Hope this helps,

Marc

Thanks for the clarification Marc. I appreciate it!

[jazzrack]

***** oh nevermind, i'm out. this is pointless*****

[Joshv02]

Originally posted by Henry
You know, Markus does have a lot of incentive to work on V6 on his own time as well

A good point that is being lost, here. And something that is implicitly (pretty close to explicitly) stated by Marc's post, above.

If you care about incentivizing behavior (which is one reason to "complain" on this message board), then the incentive is in the right place.

SI bought OOTPD for, I imagine, the intellectual property and the good will associated with that game/name. Markus, and SI, have proper incentives to increase/maintain that good will.