Hey all... my opinion about OOTP6 and Markus

[bigdgp2]

Hello all, I haven't posted here in a long time so bear with me here if I don't know a lot of you...

I've been playing OOTP since version 3 and I was overjoyed with every version up to 5. Even though I can't say the same for the 6th yet (I'm saying yet since it has only been 3 months as all of you know), I believe Markus will try his hardest to put in features such as Head to Head internet play and maybe even the Financial Coefficients... maybe even more, who knows? I'm not a fanboy of the game, but I'm also not feeling pessimistic about this game. I'm disappointed with the game, but the reasons were already mentioned so I won't rant about it.
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When Markus said that he wanted to do the Financial Coefficient, then said it was too hard to create something such as that, I believe that it means that he tried his hardest to put it in the game, but it could of lead to other problems in the game. I was also disappointed, but I don't believe his intent was to rip us off. I didn't feel ripped off when I bought 5 or 6.

I think Head to Head play will make it into the game, but it will take a while.If it doesn't make it, I'll be very disappointed since it was a promised feature, but it will not stop me from buying OOTP7 or future versions.

Also realize that Markus put in a completely new DIPS system into his game, while starting with a waivers system an Rule V Draft (It's going to take tweaking to make them stand out in the game more)

I believe version 6 has a lot of potential and I have a feeling that Markus can and will do his best to reach it. For that, I respect him and the people that work with him. I believe the OOTP community also has the opportunity to help him.

When I say the opportunity to help him, I must say that I am very worried about the OOTP community thus far...

Most of the people I have known on these boards for a long time by posting (or used to be) on the Off Topic Forums have made very reasonable constructive criticisms about the game since they have owned previous versions of the best baseball game.

Constructive Criticism should not be attacked with "Then don't play the game." If you want to flame, just realize that the people that are making these criticisms are needed to keep the game in the long run. If you enjoy the product, then I'm happy that you are, because it is still a quality product, but the people that make the criticisms are long-time OOTP'ers and know what Markus and his company is capable of doing. One of the reasons this company is the best on customer support is that they read these constructive criticisms and Markus tries to fix the game as early as he can.

I'll probably be flamed, but this is just my opinion. Nothing More.

[Skipaway]

Originally posted by bigdgp2
but the people that make the criticisms are long-time OOTP'ers and know what Markus and his company is capable of doing.

I think you mean those people assumed they know what Markus is capable of doing.

Even Markus himself does not know that fully, or what you said about financial coefficient would not have happened.

And I think that's the problem with some of the suggestions. It's great to see people providing ideas, but it's silly for us to assume we "know" what the company should do.

[Malleus Dei]

Skipaway is not aware that there are known rights and wrongs in the business world, and that there is both an applicable history and an applicable context to understand where OOTP is right now.

[holyroller]

Oh goodie! MD versus Skipaway! This should be a long one!

[Jason]

Originally posted by bigdgp2
Constructive Criticism should not be attacked with "Then don't play the game." ... just realize that the people that are making these criticisms are needed to keep the game in the long run.

You would also agree, however, there is a point where "constructive criticism" moves past the constructive stage...especially when the exact same problems are being brought up multiple times in multiple threads and used to stoke the fires of discontent with Markus & Co. There are no new "bugs" or "problems" being brought to the surface...just rehashing the same bugs and problems over and over and over and over and over.

There is a point where bringing up problems for discussion moves into bashing the people who haven't made the changes the way you want them as fast as you want them.

[Steve Kuffrey]

Originally posted by Dale And Eli's Dad
You would also agree, however, there is a point where "constructive criticism" moves past the constructive stage...especially when the exact same problems are being brought up multiple times in multiple threads and used to stoke the fires of discontent with Markus & Co. There are no new "bugs" or "problems" being brought to the surface...just rehashing the same bugs and problems over and over and over and over and over.

There is a point where bringing up problems for discussion moves into bashing the people who haven't made the changes the way you want them as fast as you want them.

Ditto

[Skipaway]

Originally posted by Malleus Dei
Skipaway is not aware that there are known rights and wrongs in the business world, and that there is both an applicable history and an applicable context to understand where OOTP is right now.

Known rights and wrongs??? I thought in the business world there is no fixed standard for what's right or wrong.

And even if there are absolute rights and wrongs, why makes you believe you know them better than, say, Markus?

And history, like statistics, at best could tell you what might happen, not what will happen.

It's fairly apparent Markus makes all the calls and would only take suggestions on this board selectively. That's why certain issues are never fixed. And apparently that strategy isn't necessarily a bad one considering how successful OOTP is right now. I don't think that would change any time soon, even with those new SI guys. And I think Markus is very smart in answering posts selectively and positively. These days you'd only see Markus post about what he planned to fix, while ignoring other problems completely.

I actually don't mind people pretending to be some kind of guru trying to teach Markus what to do. I just love criticizing them to pad my post count.

[Night2000]

Originally posted by Steve Kuffrey
Ditto

A man of few words! LOL..

[Mister Gogolak]

Where is the love??? How did this place get to be so divisive? I just want to play the damn game and hope that Markus can provide patches in a timely fashion. Are we spoiled from his attention to previous iterations? Certainly. But there are ways of addressing these issues from a management perspective that would solve much of the "drama" that's surfaced on these boards since people started whining about the v6 release date. Action from the mgmt could eliminate the squabbling.

On the main OOTP troubleshooting page, there could be a single post listing known bugs and requested features. This alone will not fix the situation. If management wanted to be proactive they could even say whether the bug might be fixed in the imminent patch. A string of 2000 msgs on a message board is unsat. Bugs will then be listed and relisted. The bugs need to be consolidated and listed in a flat file with some notation of status. Then if your bug is listed, you don't have to post and repost your complaint.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not pollyanish about this whole thing. I realize most software companies don't do this. The difference as can be witnessed on these boards is that few if any other software products engender the kind of fervent following that OOTP does. This isn't a game. It's a cult!!

So, either way, I'm going to be playing this game - hopefully with regular patching. And I hope that those of you who are slamming those folks who keep mentioning bugs will realize that it's only because no one has replied to the never ending requests that many feel compelled to reiterate regularly. "We're looking at all the bugs" is not good enough, because from other vendors this translates to "whatever..." The level of devotion from OOTP fans should be matched by the level of devotion from its developers. As a former manager of a help desk with 15000 users, I can tell you that most problems are no big deal as long as you let your user community know that their specific problem is being addressed.

An acknowledgement from Markus and company in the form of a known bug list would probably silence a great many of us who want this product to meet its potential. Either way the vitriole needs to stop and everyone should thank Steve, Henry, and Markus for their efforts in moving the ball forward. This problem is not due to a lack of effort on their behalf. I'm sure they're overwhelmed by the emotions that are on full display here on the boards the last few months. I hope they will take this suggestion to heart.

Thanks, guys.

Flame on!

[CommishJoe]

A couple of very well written posts. It's refreshing

As for the known bug issues, I would agree and we(beta team) are working on ideas for a solution.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally posted by CommishJoe
As for the known bug issues, I would agree and we(beta team) are working on ideas for a solution.

Finally.

[Purple Cowboy]

Originally posted by Dale And Eli's Dad
You would also agree, however, there is a point where "constructive criticism" moves past the constructive stage...especially when the exact same problems are being brought up multiple times in multiple threads and used to stoke the fires of discontent with Markus & Co. There are no new "bugs" or "problems" being brought to the surface...just rehashing the same bugs and problems over and over and over and over and over.

There is a point where bringing up problems for discussion moves into bashing the people who haven't made the changes the way you want them as fast as you want them.

Jason, I absolutely agree with you here about multiple threads.

But, if the "same bugs and problems" are being mentioned over and over and over (in some instances over multiple editions!!) obviously they have not been addressed. So who knows if they will ever be addressed unless someone from OOTPD says that they will. And to keep the light on these sores shouldn't automatically be disparaged just because they've been mentioned before.

That's my only comment to this thread.

[Purple Cowboy]

Originally posted by CommishJoe
A couple of very well written posts. It's refreshing

As for the known bug issues, I would agree and we(beta team) are working on ideas for a solution.

I wrote my above post before reading the whole thread. That's all I need for now as a start.

Thank you.

[Cardinal Rule]

Thanks CommishJoe.

And thanks Mister Gogolak for your post as well. I do believe Markus is working on the bugs, and he's stated so in his update thread posted earlier today. You're right of course - communication is the key to this whole puzzle.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Purple Cowboy
Jason, I absolutely agree with you here about multiple threads.

But, if the "same bugs and problems" are being mentioned over and over and over (in some instances over multiple editions!!) obviously they have not been addressed. So who knows if they will ever be addressed unless someone from OOTPD says that they will. And to keep the light on these sores shouldn't automatically be disparaged just because they've been mentioned before.

That's my only comment to this thread.

Well, you'll make one more because I'm about to ask you a question

I don't disagree some people will make posts until they get a response from OOTPD...however there is a group that isn't satisfied with a "we're working on it" from Henry or Steve or anyone not named Markus Heinsohn. They'll continue to post on the same topics as if they had no response at all just because it didn't come from Markus and/or didn't give them the answer they wanted to receive.

Also the ones who make a post, get a response and then a week later make a similar post with the same problem because it hasn't been corrected with a new patch yet. Those are the posts I'm talking about.

Wouldn't you agree that someone who gets an answer from OOTPD should be satisfied even if it doesn't come from Markus himself?

I'm not saying OOTP doesn't have issues...I'm on the beta team so I know full well the kinks that need to be worked out and they are certainly being worked on as well as some long term issues. One of the long term problems is a pet project of mine that I always tag at the bottom of e-mails I occassionally exchange with Markus.

[Purple Cowboy]

Wouldn't you agree that someone who gets an answer from OOTPD should be satisfied even if it doesn't come from Markus himself?

Absolutely yes. But like I said, if they say they're "working on it" but patch after patch comes out without that issue being resolved what has happened? Back burner perhaps? And what happens to the back burner stuff after a few weeks/months? I know at my place of employment it ends up in the plastic filing system (aka trash).

I think this is where the true angst comes in from loyal OOTP supporters. The fact that the answer to this or that problem was not included in this or that patch means (rightly or wrongly) that it will never happen. And no one says this or that specific thing will be addressed on this or that release.

So, my point is, I can understand when folks complain about problems they have previously complained about. It is not irrational and those folks mentioning it shouldn't be dismissed or blackballed IMHO. Is it sometimes excessive? As a 2 year lurker here before I started posting, I'll say yes and no. No in the instances where the bitching has affected change and yes where it hasn't.

I've chimed in on many "all options should be available on every count while playing games" threads but this is still not even on the radar. So if I mention it again will I be charged with excessive bitching just because they know about it?

[jbmagic]

i find it easier to email Markus Directly

and let him know of any bugs you find....he is very friendly and willl email you back ..

i find a direct email to Markus is the easier to get the message across than in the forum...Seems to be a lack of communication from the Forum to Markus.....

when i email markus sometimes he is surprise of the bug and says he will check into it...that same bug is reported in the forum, so i think there a lack of communication from forum to Markus...

who responsible to get the message to Markus ? there seems like there a problem there.. No wonder alot of bugs people post in the forum, never gets reported from version to version, from patch to patch..that why alot of the same bugs keeps showing up when a new patch comes out..

like with others say...why dont u make a sticky of issue of bugs that Markus is working on, then people wont keep posting the same bugs in the forum...and have Markus confirm which one he working on for the next patch, so people wont be surprise when the patch comes out...

[Malleus Dei]

Originally posted by Skipaway
Known rights and wrongs??? I thought in the business world there is no fixed standard for what's right or wrong.

There are indeed known rights and wrongs. I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this; I realize that the idea of right and wrong actually existing may come as a shock to you.

And even if there are absolute rights and wrongs, why makes you believe you know them better than, say, Markus?

Thirty more years of experience.

And history, like statistics, at best could tell you what might happen, not what will happen.

"History is a guide to navigation in perilous times. History is who we are and why we are the way we are." - David C. McCullough

"Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it." - George Santayana

The past is the key to the present, and you ignore that statement at your peril.

[gmo]

Just throwing out an idea here... We are told bug/problems/issues/whatever are known and reported to Markus if they are posted/repeatable/important/whatever, so no need for them to be repeatedly mentioned, but Markus is not able/free/willing/whatever to right now have a list of these things and where they stand in his work. Why not have a handful of community folks volunteer to manage a stickied thread with a list of the issues that have been brought up on the board?

Have the thread begin with a post by each person involved listing what that person has tracked in the thread, so everything is noted up front and ideally easier for people to notice. Each entry for an issue, which would be a single post, can just mention the issue, point to a thread or threads where it is discussed, give any info we have on it, whatever - but no editorializing at that point, just the facts ma'am. Maybe that and the search function can at least cut down on the repeated listing of issues.

This would take a bit of effort to get rolling, but I don't see how it would be that much different from just continuing to repeatedly answering the same "Is this a bug?" questions. No, it won't necessarily tell if or when the issues are going to be fixed, assuming they are things that need fixing. And people will still be unhappy if their pet topics are not officially addressed to their satisfaction. But a lot of info could be in the same place or just one click away. Somebody is working on the manual now, why not also (or then) this sort of thing too? People could rotate on & off duty for this since you don't need much continuity if it is working well.

Like I said, just tossing an idea out there.

[Malleus Dei]

A posted "known bug" list is an idea whose time has come.