Starting date being 1931 instead of 1917

[canadiancreed]

I'm sure this has been mentioned beforehand somewhere but it might be buried with all the activity, but is there a reason why the start date is set to 1930-31? Seems rather random since it's not the first year of the NHL (1917), nor the first year of an American team playing (1926?), or the NHL gaining sole control of the Stanley Cup (1924?). I get why pre 1917 isn't an option with the rover position making things interesting, but was wondering why the start date for historical leagues would be that year?

[Cole]

I think it's just a matter of there is only so much manpower and time to add certain seasons and players as we go along...

FHM 2014 started in 1948 as I recall, so we've added even more seasons to FHM 2. For FHM 3 I am sure it might go even farther back.

[canadiancreed]

Originally Posted by Cole

I think it's just a matter of there is only so much manpower and time to add certain seasons and players as we go along...

FHM 2014 started in 1948 as I recall, so we've added even more seasons to FHM 2. For FHM 3 I am sure it might go even farther back.

AH so it's more a research issue as opposed to a mechanics issue. That's good to hear.

[tward13]

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

AH so it's more a research issue as opposed to a mechanics issue. That's good to hear.

Although I do have to wonder if the earlier you go the game starts changing in way that will affect the AI and playing out the games. You start getting to even smaller rosters for one.

[Cole]

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

AH so it's more a research issue as opposed to a mechanics issue. That's good to hear.

It could very well be a mechanics issue too, I don't know exactly. I'll let Jeff weigh in on that when he gets back online.

[canadiancreed]

Originally Posted by tward13

Although I do have to wonder if the earlier you go the game starts changing in way that will affect the AI and playing out the games. You start getting to even smaller rosters for one.

Smaller rosters, no offsides, no forward passes, goalies not allowed to save not standing up, and red line passes (although that could have been addressed due to the rule only existing starting in the 50's) are just some that immediately come to mind. The rover position for any pre NHL leagues would be a huge change as well. I'm picturing that pre 20's hockey would be on par with 19th century baseball in the difficulty that it would take to sim

[JeffR]

Originally Posted by tward13

Although I do have to wonder if the earlier you go the game starts changing in way that will affect the AI and playing out the games. You start getting to even smaller rosters for one.

Yeah, that's part of it. Not an unsurmountable issue, but the changes in game rules in particular made it a bad idea to try to tackle this the same year we did a massive game engine overhaul. I did design the game engine in such a way that it should be able to handle the early rules, though.

The other big issue is other NHL-level leagues once you get back to the 20's. We can make them work, obviously, since we've done that with the WHA in the 70's. But there's the added complication of having them compete for the Cup. That's going to be tough to do right. Setting up the PCHA/WCHL playoffs as a separate part of the NHL playoffs (until the finals) might be the way ot go, but it'll be tricky.

[canadiancreed]

Is this also the reason why some teams are missing? For example the Ottawa Senators in 1931 did exist and the rosters are available on hockey reference.

[krownroyal83]

Rules were different back in 1917 as well. No forward passes. I no nothing about programming but i'm they thought about this when deciding how far back historical mode would go.

[tward13]

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

Is this also the reason why some teams are missing? For example the Ottawa Senators in 1931 did exist and the rosters are available on hockey reference.

Not in the NHL for 1931-32

[canadiancreed]

hmm well I stand corrected. Thought they were constant till 1935

[JeffR]

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

Is this also the reason why some teams are missing? For example the Ottawa Senators in 1931 did exist and the rosters are available on hockey reference.

They shut down for 1931-32, actually, then came back for 32-33 (they'll show up in the game then) and managed a couple more seasons before moving to St. Louis for a year and then shutting down entirely. That's one of the reasons the start year is 1931 specifically, it would've been tough to have a team suspend operations for a year if we'd gone any earlier.

[JeffR]

Originally Posted by krownroyal83

Rules were different back in 1917 as well. No forward passes. I no nothing about programming but i'm they thought about this when deciding how far back historical mode would go.

Surprisingly enough, that one may not be that hard to deal with, it's just a matter of restricting the directions the match engine targets passes. I'm sure that'll do some strange things to offense that we'll have to work out, though.

[Trebro]

Keep in mind, baseball's rules are radically different for a long time, but game is playable for 1871 in OOTP. The cavet is that the rules used are the modern ones.

I know FHM is its own thing, but for some (most?) just being able to start in 1917 with real players might be cool enough. Food for thought.

[Cole]

Originally Posted by Trebro

I know FHM is its own thing, but for some (most?) just being able to start in 1917 with real players might be cool enough. Food for thought.

Maybe it's me, but I just think there are much, much bigger priorities that most people would want to see addressed first.

It's hardly scientific, but my "what is your main game mode?" poll showed only 10% of people in historical. I would assume even fewer of those have interest in playing back as far as 1917.. So yeah... It would be nice to have that in there, but I don't imagine it will be, or should be, very high on the priority list.

[Trebro]

Originally Posted by Cole

Maybe it's me, but I just think there are much, much bigger priorities that most people would want to see addressed first.

It's hardly scientific, but my "what is your main game mode?" poll showed only 10% of people in historical. I would assume even fewer of those have interest in playing back as far as 1917.. So yeah... It would be nice to have that in there, but I don't imagine it will be, or should be, very high on the priority list.

Oh, I don't disagree. I just meant that when the time comes, having the players might just be enough and no need to really tinker with the game engine.

[canadiancreed]

Originally Posted by Cole

MIt's hardly scientific, but my "what is your main game mode?" poll showed only 10% of people in historical.

Pre Original SIx gamers will be the 19th century baseball of the FHM community

[Cole]

Originally Posted by Trebro

Oh, I don't disagree. I just meant that when the time comes, having the players might just be enough and no need to really tinker with the game engine.

Oh yes, fair point !

[G-Nuke]

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

Pre Original SIx gamers will be the 19th century baseball of the FHM community

I agree with this. I was glad the game pushed the start date back to the start of WW2, but not interest of going to far back into the 30s even.


I would think a better focus would be things like allowing fictional leagues with historical players.


I've also found that there are strange ommissions in historical play, like no entry-level contracts (atleast in the mid-2000s) since entry level deals came out of the '94 CBA I believe.


Another better addition to historical play might be adding the KHL, since it is basically a modern-day WHA.

[legendsport]

Originally Posted by G-Nuke

I agree with this. I was glad the game pushed the start date back to the start of WW2, but not interest of going to far back into the 30s even.


I would think a better focus would be things like allowing fictional leagues with historical players.


I've also found that there are strange ommissions in historical play, like no entry-level contracts (atleast in the mid-2000s) since entry level deals came out of the '94 CBA I believe.


Another better addition to historical play might be adding the KHL, since it is basically a modern-day WHA.

I'm one of the "10%" and would love to see it go back to the beginning of the NHL, but I also understand the complexities that would cause with the Western leagues, rules, etc.

But I would definitely have to second the idea of allowing custom leagues with historical players. I'd love to do a what-if league with the WHA not folding (or something along those lines).