Wait For It.....Wait For It............No Update

Penfold75 · 07-04-2014, 02:56 AM

Direct quote from the post with the nice pics from the team meeeting

BradC - 'I just asked Jeff and he said that we'll have an update on that at the beginning of next week'

It is the end of the week folks and no update. I wasn't surprised there was no update as this has pretty much been the case with FHM. The communication is once more as shoddy and disappointing as ever. I accept there was a server crash that lost the team a few days but the update that should have been released at the beginning of the week should still be the same now that we are at the end of the week. 5/10/15 minutes of typing is all it needs. I guess the FHM community aren't worth it.

I don't know what is more disappointing the state of the game or the communication from the team. I was delighted when the update thread was started and saw that as progress but then it started to get used less and less.

I think the people who have bought FHM deserve to know the plans for the game. Will issues like Trading, Free Agency be fixed at some point (or do the team know how to fix them), when is the next patch (with match engine) being released and what will be in FHM 2015.

I think the answers to some of these questions may determine whether some FHM 2014 customers become FHM 2015 Customers.

Puckhead · 07-04-2014, 03:38 AM

At this point I have to agree with this. I'm waiting for like three months or so for the new match engine because I just can not enjoy the game anymore without an engine... Please give us some more info about the last update and when it will finally be released. Thanks!

TheAdamBn · 07-04-2014, 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puckhead

At this point I have to agree with this. I'm waiting for like three months or so for the new match engine because I just can not enjoy the game anymore without an engine... Please give us some more info about the last update and when it will finally be released. Thanks!

3 months.. Damn. I've been waiting since it was announced in January. I like to watch games unfold and the current engine is just lacking any sign of life.

I do wonder if this excessive delay is due to the new engine being rubbish as well and them hurriedly trying to fix it.

I think I'm now just sticking around waiting to see what screw up they do now. The game is uninstalled and I doubt im gonna buy FHM15 unless it offers some sort of discount.

Its a total 180 reversal from where I stood at release. I contacted OOTP to make sure I could run videos for YouTube and was going to feature it on a website I write for, but just couldn't bring myself to subject other people to this 'game'

Puckhead · 07-04-2014, 04:14 AM

I think I'm still going to buy FHM 2015 simply because I love that the company is so small and that there finally is a new hockey manager out. But the lack of communication is really bad and that was the major advantage compared to bigger companies like EA where really nobody cares... Please communicate better with your users again!

AlpineSK · 07-04-2014, 09:07 AM

I actually asked about this on Facebook and was told "hopefully soon." I asked about priorities last week since it was reported as 1. Match Engine. 2. Multiplayer. 3. Roster moves by AI (if time permits after the first two) and was told "We are trying to hammer things down this week so we'll let you know what our priorities are after we've worked that out."

Then, later it was stated something to the effect of there might not be much to tell in an update or something to that effect.. I can't seem to find it though.

Maybe it'll come today. Sure, it's July 4th in the United States, but since a bulk of the purchasers of this game who would be interested in an update are from other countries, it should be business as usual for most of them, right?

IvanIvanovich · 07-04-2014, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheAdamBn

I think I'm now just sticking around waiting to see what screw up they do now. The game is uninstalled and I doubt im gonna buy FHM15 unless it offers some sort of discount.

I have to agree with this. It's very unlikely that I'll be buying FMH15 unless it's offered to us for next to no charge. I'll probably keep an eye on the forums for the next 10-12 years or so until they have a product that begins to come close to what EHM did 9 years ago.

I'm disappointed

JeffR · 07-04-2014, 01:47 PM

Updated posted. Guys, it's going to be a long, very busy summer, and I think most people understand by now that when we're swamped in work, the forum presence tends to suffer. But at this point, we've been steadily working on patching and improving the game for ten months since the release; I would hope by now that would be adequate evidence that we're not walking away from the game. When we've got the time, we'll be as active as possible on the forum, but keep in mind that every hour spent doing that is an hour that isn't spent on the patch, and right now we really need to get that completed as soon as possible.

Penfold75 · 07-04-2014, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffR

Updated posted. Guys, it's going to be a long, very busy summer, and I think most people understand by now that when we're swamped in work, the forum presence tends to suffer. But at this point, we've been steadily working on patching and improving the game for ten months since the release; I would hope by now that would be adequate evidence that we're not walking away from the game. When we've got the time, we'll be as active as possible on the forum, but keep in mind that every hour spent doing that is an hour that isn't spent on the patch, and right now we really need to get that completed as soon as possible.

I am not going to just read this comment and jump aboard with those who will press thanks for it. The post is an excuse for a lack of communication.

Nobody is asking for hours of activity on the forums. What most would like is some sort of update on a regular basis. Once a week or once every couple of weeks. These updates would only take a few minutes to type. Stop making excuses and communicate with the people who have bought your product(s) and who deserve to know what is going on.

TheAdamBn · 07-05-2014, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffR

Updated posted. Guys, it's going to be a long, very busy summer, and I think most people understand by now that when we're swamped in work, the forum presence tends to suffer. But at this point, we've been steadily working on patching and improving the game for ten months since the release; I would hope by now that would be adequate evidence that we're not walking away from the game. When we've got the time, we'll be as active as possible on the forum, but keep in mind that every hour spent doing that is an hour that isn't spent on the patch, and right now we really need to get that completed as soon as possible.

Absolutely laughable.

Im going to add the 'Final Patch' to the long list of lies spouted by the FHM team.

Facegen - Slated for release, then a post release patch and then finally dropped

Add On Central - Confirmed numerous times including here. Post launch confirmed as removed.

Steam Trading Cards - Confirmed on 30th May here citing that they were 'likely be a week or two depending on what else she needs to work on'. Almost 6 weeks later and no sign.

Match Engine - Announced back in January and being built at that point, then delayed past March. Confirmed to be the final patch FHM14 would get and as of June 3rd JeffR made it sound like it was done (Match engine replacement: I described this in much more detail here, and there's not much that's changed since that description, other than some minor changes to play-by-play that, if they make it in, will make the PBP a little more situational and descriptive.)

So whats happened since then. JeffR confirmed that FHM15 was more important ((have been busy trying to get the last version of this year's database finalized so we can convert it for the new season and our researchers can begin their 2015 work) & (FHM 2015: Some of the work is already underway) rather than update the forum on promised features.

Its beginning to sound more and more like excuses and its getting towards the point, where I'm actually tempted to speak to trading standards.

How hard would it be to post a daily update.. 5 minutes work.. Throw in a screenshot of something in development and im sure the forum would be loving you guys again..

But no.. You'd rather have everyone annoyed at you and boycotting purchasing your products.. Smart move *facepalms*

Teloch · 07-05-2014, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheAdamBn

Steam Trading Cards - Confirmed on 30th May here citing that they were 'likely be a week or two depending on what else she needs to work on'. Almost 6 weeks later and no sign.

Not much to add, but the cards are already in and have been for a while. Already got my cards and sold them off during Steam's summer sale.

AlpineSK · 07-05-2014, 08:50 AM

Thanks for saying most of what I was already thinking. . .

I guess I'll never understand how sitting and typing a few paragraphs takes hours upon hours to do. Do you know where I do my most forum reading? While I am sitting around in the morning having breakfast and a coffee.

I guess they should have covered customer relations a bit more at the company meeting. Markus and Brad are so active and do such a great job. These guys could learn a few things from them. We've pointed it out time and time again.

We dont need War and Peace or a half hour long YouTube video outlining what changes were made that day. Just "Hey, here is where we stand. Let me tell you about THIS feature." If you don't want to comment on every single thread that pops up on the forum that is reasonable and understandable. The dev's made the mistake of setting the bar at 4-5 updates per week. The users did not say "we want to hear from you almost every day" about what is going on. THEY set the expectation, not US. And we don't even scream and cry for 4-5 updates a week but anything is better than 2-3 weeks of silence at a time.

Brad said we should have some better details on a release date after the company meeting. Or at least something better than "it'll be ready when it is ready." So how bout it?

TheAdamBn · 07-05-2014, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teloch

Not much to add, but the cards are already in and have been for a while. Already got my cards and sold them off during Steam's summer sale.

Once more proving the point about poor communication.

Penfold75 · 07-05-2014, 01:36 PM

I work on a very small development team for a very large utilities company. We take pride in the relationship we have with our user community. They come up with a lot of the best ideas for improving the systems we develop, maintain and improve. We issue updates every couple of weeks about our progress on the systems we are developing and working on. It doesn't represent a huge reduction in the time we spend coding or developing. These take about 10-15 minutes to type up. We have regular user community meetings (which can't really be done here) and like the beta testing the users test the systems as they know best about how they are supposed to work. Every six months we issue a newsletter on what we are working on and the plans for the next six months.

There is something I have been working on for about a year which would really help a couple of departments. It isn't a show stopper but it would help these guys out and I would love to have it working right. I keep the heads of those departments up to speed with the progress on this even if it isn't much.

Involving and updating the user community is the best way of reducing frustration. As I said in my previous post the people who bought FHM 2014 are your likely customers for FHM2015 so don't alienate them, communicate with them and you will retain their business.

Orioles1966 · 07-05-2014, 02:57 PM

What's the point of starting new leagues If I don't and they don't know when the new patch will be available? Any estimate would be helpful .

dave1927p · 07-05-2014, 03:02 PM

They have been making fairly regular updates here for quite some time now: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...-thread-2.html . Remember too that the server had crashed so they couldn't access the forums either.

Gamers have great memories, there is no doubt there were promises made early on that were not lived up to yet, but from everything I see these guys are quite dedicated to FHM and think back to where it started on the "release date", they have come a long ways.

I'd say that FHM was a learning curve for the entire OOTP team and they will bring what they learned over the their football game. The truth of the matter is that we just have to let it go and accept the fact that they are a small company trying their best to create the vision they want. I think if they could do many things differently they would but ultimately you cannot undo the past.

Personally I will accept the hurdles and stay with them because quite frankly FHM is the only shot at a game to compete with EHM. It is such a difficult sport to do, let alone with limited resources. In the end we the community have to help stride to make this game better or simply take a step back. I know they did not lie when they promised such features, it just became overwhelming to correct many of the bugs plaguing the game at the time to implement new things. I truly feel that with time the promises will be made true. I know not everyone will understand that, and that is fair. But keep in mind that it doesn't help throwing things in their faces over and over again. It's not an easy job for them, they can't please everyone.

Germaniac · 07-06-2014, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave1927p

They have been making fairly regular updates here for quite some time now: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...-thread-2.html . Remember too that the server had crashed so they couldn't access the forums either.

You're talking about the "4-5 updates a week" (stated in the first post), right ? No wait, one every 4-5 weeks, that's the reality.

By now I don't know what frustrates me more - the state of the game or the continuing lack of communication.

And while this game still suffers in so many areas, things that should have fixed a long time ago, I more and more get the feeling that FHM15 takes over in priority.

Why fix the 2014 version when these things could be included (and sold) in the new version ?

Markus Heinsohn · 07-06-2014, 07:03 AM

Guys, seriously. I know that Sebastian, Malte and Jeff work their butts off. And sometimes you're so swamped that you do not want to be distracted by going to the forums, I really know what I'm talking about here since I have these times on several occasions each year. And once you do, reading posts that bitch about communication does not help, believe me. Stuff like that once resulted in me suffering burnout and depression like symptoms, which is no fun at all.

Our job is really stressful, and FHM is in its early stages, having to follow a product which is in development for 17 years (OOTP). Of course, not everything is working out the way we planned and hoped, but I can assure you that the guys are working as hard as they can to make a great game and the customers happy. It's a learning process, and FHM will catch up to OOTP eventually in all regards, but it cannot possible happen over night (or 3-4 years, for that matter), I hope those who are overly critical about FHM think about this for a minute.

Markus Heinsohn · 07-06-2014, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Germaniac

And while this game still suffers in so many areas, things that should have fixed a long time ago, I more and more get the feeling that FHM15 takes over in priority.

Why fix the 2014 version when these things could be included (and sold) in the new version ?

Of course we need to focus on FHM 2015 at one point, after all we have a business to run and need the income. We don't do this entirely for fun, we have to pay bills as well. So we need to strike a careful balance on when to continue support for an existing & stable product and when to move on to development of the upcoming version. With OOTP it's easy, the game is established, has millions of features which work well and hence there is no need for plenty of patches and updates. With FHM it is a bit different, since it is version 1, of course. But we need to move to version 2 some day, I think I don't have to explain this as it is completely logical...

Markus Heinsohn · 07-06-2014, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlpineSK

I guess I'll never understand how sitting and typing a few paragraphs takes hours upon hours to do. Do you know where I do my most forum reading? While I am sitting around in the morning having breakfast and a coffee.

Good for you. But for us reading and posting in forums is work. For you it's a hobby. Big difference. I personally cannot spend much times on the forums while I am in the midst of a development phase, it's simply a distraction and eats up much more time than you can imagine.

Penfold75 · 07-06-2014, 09:16 AM

Having one locked dedicated update thread would not take hours to update every couple of weeks. That's right there is one it just isn't updated that often or the updates are waffle.

People only bitch about communication when there is none or very little. Everyone has the same objective to have the best Hockey Management game there is. That is why I bought my copy back in the early beta days. I believe in OOTP as a company and that is why I recently bought OOTP Baseball 15. I wanted to continue my support for the company while waiting for the next version of FHM which I will buy and maybe get fed up with and bitch about now and again when it comes out. Having played OOTP Baseball 15 and seen what an amazing game it is I know FHM is nowhere near that now and won't be for years but it will be amazing when it gets there.

I left a job where all I got was negative comments about my work and then when I left and they installed the system I had developed everyone thought it was better than what they had. I suffered from depression at that time and lost my confidence until I worked for a small company with a friend who restored my confidence in what I could do. I understand the stress. I also see the benefits in better communication as it decreases the frustration that the users feel and they will feel it and express it.

I would even volunteer to do updates for you if you guys are swamped to help out.

07-04-2014, 02:56 AM	#1
Penfold75 Major Leagues Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Glasgow in Scotland. Originally Winnipeg. Posts: 426	Wait For It.....Wait For It............No Update Direct quote from the post with the nice pics from the team meeeting BradC - 'I just asked Jeff and he said that we'll have an update on that at the beginning of next week' It is the end of the week folks and no update. I wasn't surprised there was no update as this has pretty much been the case with FHM. The communication is once more as shoddy and disappointing as ever. I accept there was a server crash that lost the team a few days but the update that should have been released at the beginning of the week should still be the same now that we are at the end of the week. 5/10/15 minutes of typing is all it needs. I guess the FHM community aren't worth it. I don't know what is more disappointing the state of the game or the communication from the team. I was delighted when the update thread was started and saw that as progress but then it started to get used less and less. I think the people who have bought FHM deserve to know the plans for the game. Will issues like Trading, Free Agency be fixed at some point (or do the team know how to fix them), when is the next patch (with match engine) being released and what will be in FHM 2015. I think the answers to some of these questions may determine whether some FHM 2014 customers become FHM 2015 Customers. Last edited by Penfold75; 07-04-2014 at 08:05 AM.

07-04-2014, 09:07 AM	#5
AlpineSK All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Bear, DE Posts: 1,618	I actually asked about this on Facebook and was told "hopefully soon." I asked about priorities last week since it was reported as 1. Match Engine. 2. Multiplayer. 3. Roster moves by AI (if time permits after the first two) and was told "We are trying to hammer things down this week so we'll let you know what our priorities are after we've worked that out." Then, later it was stated something to the effect of there might not be much to tell in an update or something to that effect.. I can't seem to find it though. Maybe it'll come today. Sure, it's July 4th in the United States, but since a bulk of the purchasers of this game who would be interested in an update are from other countries, it should be business as usual for most of them, right? __________________ Check out my Sims!! 2013 Boston Red Sox Or my blogs: http://www.medicsbk.com The Sports Medic

07-05-2014, 08:50 AM	#11
AlpineSK All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Bear, DE Posts: 1,618	Thanks for saying most of what I was already thinking. . . I guess I'll never understand how sitting and typing a few paragraphs takes hours upon hours to do. Do you know where I do my most forum reading? While I am sitting around in the morning having breakfast and a coffee. I guess they should have covered customer relations a bit more at the company meeting. Markus and Brad are so active and do such a great job. These guys could learn a few things from them. We've pointed it out time and time again. We dont need War and Peace or a half hour long YouTube video outlining what changes were made that day. Just "Hey, here is where we stand. Let me tell you about THIS feature." If you don't want to comment on every single thread that pops up on the forum that is reasonable and understandable. The dev's made the mistake of setting the bar at 4-5 updates per week. The users did not say "we want to hear from you almost every day" about what is going on. THEY set the expectation, not US. And we don't even scream and cry for 4-5 updates a week but anything is better than 2-3 weeks of silence at a time. Brad said we should have some better details on a release date after the company meeting. Or at least something better than "it'll be ready when it is ready." So how bout it? __________________ Check out my Sims!! 2013 Boston Red Sox Or my blogs: http://www.medicsbk.com The Sports Medic

07-05-2014, 01:36 PM	#13
Penfold75 Major Leagues Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Glasgow in Scotland. Originally Winnipeg. Posts: 426	I work on a very small development team for a very large utilities company. We take pride in the relationship we have with our user community. They come up with a lot of the best ideas for improving the systems we develop, maintain and improve. We issue updates every couple of weeks about our progress on the systems we are developing and working on. It doesn't represent a huge reduction in the time we spend coding or developing. These take about 10-15 minutes to type up. We have regular user community meetings (which can't really be done here) and like the beta testing the users test the systems as they know best about how they are supposed to work. Every six months we issue a newsletter on what we are working on and the plans for the next six months. There is something I have been working on for about a year which would really help a couple of departments. It isn't a show stopper but it would help these guys out and I would love to have it working right. I keep the heads of those departments up to speed with the progress on this even if it isn't much. Involving and updating the user community is the best way of reducing frustration. As I said in my previous post the people who bought FHM 2014 are your likely customers for FHM2015 so don't alienate them, communicate with them and you will retain their business. Last edited by Penfold75; 07-05-2014 at 02:06 PM.

07-05-2014, 03:02 PM	#15
dave1927p FHM Moderator Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Brantford, ON Posts: 2,888	They have been making fairly regular updates here for quite some time now: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...-thread-2.html . Remember too that the server had crashed so they couldn't access the forums either. Gamers have great memories, there is no doubt there were promises made early on that were not lived up to yet, but from everything I see these guys are quite dedicated to FHM and think back to where it started on the "release date", they have come a long ways. I'd say that FHM was a learning curve for the entire OOTP team and they will bring what they learned over the their football game. The truth of the matter is that we just have to let it go and accept the fact that they are a small company trying their best to create the vision they want. I think if they could do many things differently they would but ultimately you cannot undo the past. Personally I will accept the hurdles and stay with them because quite frankly FHM is the only shot at a game to compete with EHM. It is such a difficult sport to do, let alone with limited resources. In the end we the community have to help stride to make this game better or simply take a step back. I know they did not lie when they promised such features, it just became overwhelming to correct many of the bugs plaguing the game at the time to implement new things. I truly feel that with time the promises will be made true. I know not everyone will understand that, and that is fair. But keep in mind that it doesn't help throwing things in their faces over and over again. It's not an easy job for them, they can't please everyone. __________________ IN 1964 THE LEAFS WON THE STANLEY CUP :: IT'S ALSO THE YEAR THE CANADIAN FLAG WAS DESIGNED...coincidence? Last edited by dave1927p; 07-05-2014 at 04:35 PM.

07-04-2014, 03:38 AM	#2
Puckhead Minors (Double A) Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Germany Posts: 162	At this point I have to agree with this. I'm waiting for like three months or so for the new match engine because I just can not enjoy the game anymore without an engine... Please give us some more info about the last update and when it will finally be released. Thanks!

07-04-2014, 04:14 AM	#4
Puckhead Minors (Double A) Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Germany Posts: 162	I think I'm still going to buy FHM 2015 simply because I love that the company is so small and that there finally is a new hockey manager out. But the lack of communication is really bad and that was the major advantage compared to bigger companies like EA where really nobody cares... Please communicate better with your users again!

07-04-2014, 01:47 PM	#7
JeffR FHM Producer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Kelowna, BC Posts: 16,625	Updated posted. Guys, it's going to be a long, very busy summer, and I think most people understand by now that when we're swamped in work, the forum presence tends to suffer. But at this point, we've been steadily working on patching and improving the game for ten months since the release; I would hope by now that would be adequate evidence that we're not walking away from the game. When we've got the time, we'll be as active as possible on the forum, but keep in mind that every hour spent doing that is an hour that isn't spent on the patch, and right now we really need to get that completed as soon as possible.

07-05-2014, 02:57 PM	#14
Orioles1966 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 2,869	What's the point of starting new leagues If I don't and they don't know when the new patch will be available? Any estimate would be helpful .

07-06-2014, 07:03 AM	#17
Markus Heinsohn Developer OOTP Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Germany Posts: 24,739	Guys, seriously. I know that Sebastian, Malte and Jeff work their butts off. And sometimes you're so swamped that you do not want to be distracted by going to the forums, I really know what I'm talking about here since I have these times on several occasions each year. And once you do, reading posts that bitch about communication does not help, believe me. Stuff like that once resulted in me suffering burnout and depression like symptoms, which is no fun at all. Our job is really stressful, and FHM is in its early stages, having to follow a product which is in development for 17 years (OOTP). Of course, not everything is working out the way we planned and hoped, but I can assure you that the guys are working as hard as they can to make a great game and the customers happy. It's a learning process, and FHM will catch up to OOTP eventually in all regards, but it cannot possible happen over night (or 3-4 years, for that matter), I hope those who are overly critical about FHM think about this for a minute. __________________ Buy Out of the Park Baseball 25 now! Download OOTP Go 25 for iOS Download OOTP Go 25 for Android

07-06-2014, 09:16 AM	#20
Penfold75 Major Leagues Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Glasgow in Scotland. Originally Winnipeg. Posts: 426	Having one locked dedicated update thread would not take hours to update every couple of weeks. That's right there is one it just isn't updated that often or the updates are waffle. People only bitch about communication when there is none or very little. Everyone has the same objective to have the best Hockey Management game there is. That is why I bought my copy back in the early beta days. I believe in OOTP as a company and that is why I recently bought OOTP Baseball 15. I wanted to continue my support for the company while waiting for the next version of FHM which I will buy and maybe get fed up with and bitch about now and again when it comes out. Having played OOTP Baseball 15 and seen what an amazing game it is I know FHM is nowhere near that now and won't be for years but it will be amazing when it gets there. I left a job where all I got was negative comments about my work and then when I left and they installed the system I had developed everyone thought it was better than what they had. I suffered from depression at that time and lost my confidence until I worked for a small company with a friend who restored my confidence in what I could do. I understand the stress. I also see the benefits in better communication as it decreases the frustration that the users feel and they will feel it and express it. I would even volunteer to do updates for you if you guys are swamped to help out. Last edited by Penfold75; 07-06-2014 at 09:25 AM.