OOTP vs. FM

[PSUColonel]

Realizing this could be somewhat biased, I'll pose the question. Please only answer if you are familiar with both. Which do you feel has the best AI, Immersion and all around realistic and fun game experience. You can't say both, so choose one.

[rudel.dietrich]

It is not even really close.
But there is no shame in being the 2nd or 3rd best sports simulation franchise currently avaliable. Even more so considering how world class FM is.

FM also has a staff of over 100 full time people and hundreds of researches while OOTP has 1 full time and 2 part time workers.
FM also has a budget that probably dwarfs OOTP's dozens of times over.


If I were to rank sports simulations I would put FM first, EHM second and OOTP 3rd.
After the top three it really drops off in terms of quality.

And OOTP does not lose on every front either. In terms of customization OOTP easily wins.
FM can be modified but it takes a great deal of effort and in some cases 3rd party editors.

[BabyLemonade]

No comparison..But for me is the other way around..FM has powerfull AI, great playing experience during the game due to graphics etc..BUT OOTP has limitless options..You can play Fictional, Historical, Modern Day, Cooperstown etc..etc..Off cource there is editor (and powerfull one) in FM but still i feel the options in OOTP can be used in more imaginative ways..And as very well said by Rudel.Dietrich you cannot compare the companies...The one is Huge Co. and is working on the number 1 in sales Sports Simulation game for over ten yrs..And OOTP is not so big..
AI is the big difference but i hope that year after year the OOTP team will make it a better game..

And anyway i m in love with Baseball....

[Tullius]

I think some people (esp. american customers) herer overrate FM because they do not know enough about soccer.

FM and OOTP are different games and have a different approach, so any comparison is difficult or not really possible. FM models (only) the english view of soccer and is fun. I myself have played FM09 and even when it is a nice game which is entertaining on its own there were plenty of "problems" in terms of realism esp. when you know the soccer business a little bit better. Even the 3D (in 09) was more entertaining than a realistic simulation of football because there were simply too many strange actions by the AI.

Despite all the shortcomings i rate FM as a very good game, but it is a game and not more and not less.

[RamMan12]

FM by far, but OOTP is making strides in becoming this way. Players have much more complex personalities and clubs can be micromanaged more in FM than OOTP. Also, I can't call team meetings or talk to the media in OOTP. Eventually I think OOTP will make it there though.

My bias however, is that I wear a bracelet that says "Chelsea Football Club" and my room is nothing but Chelsea stuff.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by Tullius

I think some people (esp. american customers) herer overrate FM because they do not know enough about soccer.

FM and OOTP are different games and have a different approach, so any comparison is difficult or not really possible. FM models (only) the english view of soccer and is fun. I myself have played FM09 and even when it is a nice game which is entertaining on its own there were plenty of "problems" in terms of realism esp. when you know the soccer business a little bit better. Even the 3D (in 09) was more entertaining than a realistic simulation of football because there were simply too many strange actions by the AI.

Despite all the shortcomings i rate FM as a very good game, but it is a game and not more and not less.

Most would argue this is no longer the case with version 2012

[jbergey22]

I would have said FM last year but I have now figured out that FM is too easy. Until the AI gets better it loses my interest.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

I would have said FM last year but I have now figured out that FM is too easy. Until the AI gets better it loses my interest.

how does it get too easy?

[cody8200]

I like both games a lot but soccer is way down on my list of sports I watch. I just have more interest in baseball and thus more interest in a long term career with OOTP. That being said, I have sunk a 100 hours into last years version of FM. Though I probably sunk 200-300 hours into OOTP.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

how does it get too easy?

Not sure.

I know so little about soccer that I should not be getting promoted from league 3 to league 1 in 3 years. I think the ass-man helps too much and I think the world class managers need a AI overhaul so the computer adjusts to what you are doing to them.

[rudel.dietrich]

I have to come up with over a dozen house rules when I play OOTP to keep from abusing the AI.
Even turning the trade AI to 'hard' does not help. It simply makes the AI turn down offers in their favor and it will only accept offers that are unrealistic.

In FM I still get a pretty good challenge as long as I stay away from third party editors, third party scouting programs and wonderkid lists.
No house rules needed.

[LFC1892]

Based purely on preference, went with FM.

[Tullius]

I have to come up with over a dozen house rules when I play OOTP to keep from abusing the AI.
Even turning the trade AI to 'hard' does not help. It simply makes the AI turn down offers in their favor and it will only accept offers that are unrealistic.

In FM I still get a pretty good challenge as long as I stay away from third party editors, third party scouting programs and wonderkid lists.
No house rules needed.

Your post is the reason why i think that any comparision is difficult and not really usefull.

1. Soccer does not now trading like in Baseball. Trades are possible but are irrelevant. Yo FM does not really an AI here. The Free Agent process in soccer is much simplier than in baseball. Every player is an "unrestircted FA" from the start of his career and when a team wants a player who has still contract it is only a matter of price (transfer fee) if he changes the team.

2. In FM you have less stats and ratings of player outside your club are very thin (at least in FM09). Evaluation is hard not because the AI is good but because you have not enough information (which in my opinion is not too realistic). When you know the players in RL you have an advantage and i think here is the reason that many player consider the AI not too hard.

3. Reserve and youth teams in FM are often incomplete and use ghost players. But you have never 150 like in baseball in your organization.

[ukhotstove]

Due to the passing of Joe Frazier I'll use a boxing term, pound for pound the best game is OOTP. The op asks about AI, immersion, realism and fun. Firstly the AI probably shaded by FM but both FM and OOTP can be taken advantage of, on to immersion IMO OOTP wins by a landslide you can get lost in real, fictional and historical, FM can do real but can't do fictional or historical and if anyone says they can do fictional in FM let me send them my Skelphland file and see how long it takes them to input into FM.

Realistic, both have their flaws so I'm going with a tie on this one. Fun again IMO not even close, ive spent hours upon hours of fun just working on name files, country files etc for OOTP where's I spent around an hour of boredom and frustration trying to do a FM fictional league.

To finish if OOTP had the money and staff that FM did then we'd be talking a first round knock out and a new undefeated heavyweight champ.

[Antonin]

I gave up on FM after FM08 because the game just got too big and too crowded with things that make it seem more like work than a game. The lack of a "can't get fired" feature and an in-game editor killed the fun for me, especially since I strongly suspect [and I began playing in 2001, when it was called Championship Manager] that the AI cheats.

The fact that much of the talk about each version of FM centers around the need to develop new tactics is proof, to me, that the AI in that game is deeply flawed. Basic soccer tactics in real life don't change from year to year. But in FM, you must literally, with each version, come up with new tactics to trick the AI. That's too gamey for me.

Another factor in my lack of enjoyment of FM is the hostile atmosphere of the SI forum. If you are having trouble playing the game and want advice, or if you want to suggest changes in the game, forget about going to the SI forum. It is a hostile place where anything goes.

I occasionally play FM05 these days. I still own FM06, FM07 and FM08 but have not played them in a very long time.

OOTP, on the other hand, has given me countless hours of competitive fun since the Season Ticket Baseball version. Creating my fictional baseball universe, managing historical teams with great [or not so great] baseball players of the past, playing out games, managing my home city's team with players I can actually go see in person...

For me, OOTP Baseball is the best sports management sim ever. It allows me to be as casual or as hardcore in my gameplay as my free time allows. The "can't get fired" option allows me to experiment and freely build my own little baseball fantasy world. Every sports management sim should have a "can't get fired" option.

If somebody introduced a soccer management sim with OOTP's flexibility, customization options and user-friendliness, without all the irrelevant "stuff" that bogs down FM and makes it more work than game, I would be in sports management sim heaven.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Antonin

I gave up on FM after FM08 because the game just got too big and too crowded with things that make it seem more like work than a game. The lack of a "can't get fired" feature and an in-game editor killed the fun for me, especially since I strongly suspect [and I began playing in 2001, when it was called Championship Manager] that the AI cheats.

We're quite rigorous in ensuring that the AI doesn't cheat in FM actually - one of my pet peeves is playing games where you aren't on a 'level playing field' with the other opponents.

I do agree that FM PC/Mac is a bit of a beast these days and requires a lot of time and dedication to play, however I know the team working on it (not me these days I'm handheld only) are striving to ensure its as easy to play without the optional items as possible .... I think FM2012 is a definite step in the right direction in terms of making that more possible.

Finally if you started playing in 2001 then it might interest you to know that the 'Football Manager Handheld' series is actually designed to play in a similar manner to the (still very popular) management game we released for that season in terms of speed and depth ....

The fact that much of the talk about each version of FM centers around the

need to develop new tactics is proof, to me, that the AI in that game is deeply flawed. Basic soccer tactics in real life don't change from year to year. But in FM, you must literally, with each version, come up with new tactics to trick the AI. That's too gamey for me.

You don't have to try and 'game' the AI - thats a choice people make, we allow people to play how they want to, some will attempt to break things ... others want to play as realistically as possible and wouldn't dream of doing weird and wonderful things to try and mess up the AI.

I'd also argue that Stokes long-throw tactic is a form of real-life AI cheating which was unheard of 10 years ago

(for instance for myself I'll only ever play realistic tactics and only sign players my scouts find - this ensures that my knowledge of the game and database don't make things too easy for me)

Another factor in my lack of enjoyment of FM is the hostile atmosphere of the SI forum. If you are having trouble playing the game and want advice, or if you want to suggest changes in the game, forget about going to the SI forum. It is a hostile place where anything goes.

Some of the SI forum - especially the 'Off Topic' is rather a wild west type setup, however some areas (my Handheld Forum for instance) strive to be friendly and inviting and of course there are numerous other FM forums available .... plus a few of us devs from SI do get around to other forums and are happy to help either through PM's or answering topic posts.

Finally as some of you probably already know, I'm lucky enough to consider Markus a friend and think OOTP is an incredibly good sim, I don't think its better or worse than FM or indeed that you can truly judge them together ... they strive to achieve slightly different aims and both are (in my ever so slightly biased opinion) good products.

[PSUColonel]

surprised there wasn't more votes

[Sweed]

I voted for OOTP12 even though I also love FM12. OOTP is my choice because I grew up watching baseball which makes the whole game more intuitive to play and I am better able to recognize if things are actually realistic. The biggest thing for me with OOTP is being able to import my dynasty into each new version and continue my game. Yes, I understand why FM doesn't do this.

Been playing FM since 2006 and find v12 to be by far the best yet. I would love to know what it would be like playing FM if I had grown up in England, Spain, Italy, or any European country. I would agree that being American and not watching football until my 40's really puts a damper on my ability to say how realistic FM is. FWIW I do watch quite a few matches on Fox Soccer Channel and find this years 3d game to be more polished and realistic, especially the action around the goal. I'm sure there are many Brits that could point out many things I am missing.

I will say that FM is the only game that makes me feel like I am handling human beings and not a "sack of ratings". It also makes managing the club feel like work(not in a tedious way) and IMHO that is a good thing. News, news conferences, handling players, media, personal relationships with not only players but other managers, reading your name being thrown about as a possible candidate for a job where someone was just sacked etc. etc. etc. does make FM the deepest experience IMHO.

In the transfer market in FM I do my share of signing and selling players. How realistic it is I wouldn't really have a clue unless there was a blatantly obvious move. IE Steven Gerrard accepting an offer to play for my npower Champion league Burnley club. I do only look at players my scouts list but not as a house rule but because that is the way I would run my club. There is a great search feature but I only use it to sort the players already on my list.

As far as the FM\SI boards go I have never had anything other than courteous help when I went there asking questions. Maybe it's because I introduced myself as the Yank that never liked football until playing FM and asked questions about the hows and whys of both football and FM. In any case I always received help whenever I asked.

In the end, as others have stated, I find it hard to compare the two and select just one. The history and stats generated in OOTP are deeper than anything I will ever generate in FM. While FM will give me the "dealing with real people and a much bigger real world" than OOTP can. I would think if OOTP had been able to stay with SI it would now have the FM news model or something very close. It is too bad that SEGA didn't understand what they had with OOTP.

I would imagine if I had grown up in England my post wouldn't change a whole lot other than FM would have been my choice in the poll. Of course that is assuming as a Brit I would have found and played OOTP and become a member of this board.

[Leo_The_Lip]

I voted OOTP12 even though I'm more of a seasonal player. By that I mean, when I feel like football I play FOF, baseball is OOTP, and basketball is Fast Break College Basketball, along with FM. I wish I could spend a couple of hours every day with each game, but that's not to be.

Two things make OOTP, FOF and FBCB much more enjoyable for me, however, I still enjoy FM.

The first is length of season. In FM, you pretty much have to play out your games. Now the game engine is pretty good, and it is fun to watch, but more than 2 games in a real day is hard to find time for. The time it takes to play of a season of FM I can sim a 10+ season career in FOF or FBCB.

I like player development, and that is where both OOTP and FBCB really outshine FM. Because FM takes so long play out a season, I've rarely done more than a 4 or 5 year game. It's hard to find and develop your own players in that time frame. This is also where the real world comes in to play because good players don't stay at lower level soccer teams, while baseball has the minor leagues where you can stock pile youth. The national rules also harm my interest in FM when I play outside of England or Italy. Building up power house teams in Greece and Mexico and then losing players to Europe and having to replace those players locally or not at all is very realistic but not fun and game stopping for me.

(As an aside, if FM were as customizable as OOTP and I could turn off native player rules, I would do so and greatly increase my enthusiasm).

In FBCB, I only have the players for 4 (or 5 for a red shirt) years, but I can mold their development (and recruit) for the kind of team I want on the court. Plus, I can blast through a season in a day or three, so there is always a new frosh class to think about.

In OOTP I have 100+ players in the minors, some of whom will be major leaguers and I can watch and coddle their development. That is tremendous fun for me.

Playing FM has greatly expanded my knowledge and appreciation of world soccer, so I'm happy with it.

The real issue is finding the time to play all four of these games, plus Civilization and the new Panzer Corps Commander (the Panzer General update). To say nothing of board games on Tuesday night, plus keeping my wife gruntled.

[reo]

I picked OOTP, but I play historicals, if I was to start an entirely new game, and made to play from 2011(fictional style). I'd go with FM, and I've been playing OOTP longer than FM. I'm also a former FM researcher too. I watch a lot more football(soccer) too. I don't do fictional OOTP, only historical.

<! - - - - -hardcore Real Madrid fan.