AI finances

beorn · 06-07-2009, 08:48 AM

After running several fictional test leagues over 50 years, using standard 2009 settings, I have come to the conclusion that the AI is not handling the finances correctly. Repeatedly, more than half the AI teams end up with cash below zero, often more than $20 million in the red.

I saw this when I took part in the the OOTP9 beta and reported it, but never really looked at in the final OOTP9 final product because I played almost exclusively in online leagues. Whether this is the same problem continuing or a new issue, I cannot say.

However, this thread makes the claim that in this year's beta, the problem disappeared as long as cash maximum was changed to $1 billion, so I tried that. The problem was not resolved.

beorn · 06-07-2009, 10:18 AM

I also tried raising the typical media contract to $40 million, but initial testing shows that that also does not prevent more than half the AI teams from running red.

Nutlaw · 06-07-2009, 10:32 AM

This behavior is with otherwise default fictional finances, Beorn?

beorn · 06-07-2009, 11:08 AM

Yes, the only other setting I have played with is whether the owner decides over budget. I have tried it both ways with no difference in results, but I am about to try entire revenue available combined with higher media revenue plus extremely high cash max and see whether that combo makes a difference.

Nutlaw · 06-07-2009, 07:58 PM

Have you noticed this behavior?

BZ 3203: Budget calculation error

That would probably result in what you are seeing, yes?

beorn · 06-08-2009, 04:39 AM

No, I have not seen this.

I just went through three saved game files and every team has media money coming in. I'd have to go back through history to see whether it had ever happened in the past, but I'm betting we have two separate issues.

Spritze · 06-08-2009, 03:09 PM

The issue appears to be that the cash max column is way too low. I raised it by 15 TIMES and financially things seem to have righted themselves. I am currently running a 100 year sim to test this out. So far so good, up to 1940. Not too much cash and hardly any teams go into the red and if they do they fight out of it in a year or two.

Then I'll need to see if 12 times is better than 15 as 15 was just a WAG.

Nutlaw · 06-08-2009, 06:00 PM

Okay. When you settle on something, should we BZ a new recommended cash cap, then?

Spritze · 06-08-2009, 07:15 PM

Yes, actually I'll just recommend this whole file. Fixed the Header and 2009 issues as well as the cash cap and added 2010.

This is the original file I tested with before someone added the cash cap and 2009. Don't know why the Header was messed up as it wasn't in this copy. Whomever edited this file must have had challenges of some kind. Maybe used a text editor instead of a CSV editor. Anyhoot with 15 times higher cash cap no red problems. I'm gonna try a 100 year sim at 12 times cash cap this evening.

Players who want to play 2009 need to use this file instead of the built-in as the file that is loaded into the database folder has weird numbers in weird places for 2009 which results in weird finances. Unless you like that sort of thing, and I'm sure someone does, please use this file in its place.

Nutlaw · 06-09-2009, 01:13 PM

Presumably, 2009 is the default fictional setting?

Did you log this? If so, what's the BZ? Or did you want me to log this? Thanks!

Killebrew · 06-09-2009, 01:49 PM

"AI is not handling the finances correctly"

.

Wouldn't RAISING the cash max cause the issues with AI teams going broke? It is true OOTP uses the cash max to limit profits but it also uses it to limit debt.
Example: If you have a 100 million cash max your OOTP team cannot lose more than 100 million in the season.

My understanding was this was a 'AI cheat' design decision, perhaps to allow long term test sims to go forward without constant finance tweaks from season to season. It seems to me that giving AI teams a hefty media contract and a lower cash max will result in the AI teams never going broke.

tysok · 06-09-2009, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nutlaw

Presumably, 2009 is the default fictional setting?

Did you log this? If so, what's the BZ? Or did you want me to log this? Thanks!

Fictional leagues sucked as well.
So I copied the file from OOTP9 over and set it to run. Things didn't look very good after 4 years (but 4 years is in the middle of the freak show period) and I set it to run the next 6 before I came to work. I'll see what happened there.

If it's pulling from this file for a default fictional setup (I didn't touch anything, just set up a fictional MLB and ran) then theoretically last years file should be fine to give last year type results. I'm not sure I was seeing that... numbers were quite bad, but could work out like it always did.

I wonder if something was changed in the way the AI handles it's finances for OOTP10. Maybe an inadvertent punch with the new arb system or something. I'll see what the next 6 years looks like when I get home tonight.

Spritze · 06-09-2009, 03:58 PM

Historical I tested at 12 times the original cash max. 25% of teams run out of budget room but no one runs out of cash.

Historical I tested at 13 times the original cash max. 10% of teams run out of budget room but no one runs out of cash.

Historical I tested at 15 times the original cash max. Very few teams run out of budget and no one runs out of cash.

I didn't get time yesterday to test fictionals. All we need to find is whether 12, 13 or 15 or some other number works best for fictional. I'll test that this evening.

Historical 2008 ended with team payrolls between 60 and 85 million and the highest player salary was 17.8 mil. Close enough?

Spritze · 06-10-2009, 02:03 AM

This updated file may resolve the future fictional finance challenge.

The financials.txt file stops at 2008, 2009 is just one giant typo as is the file header. The header and 2009 are fixed, cash max is 19 times what it once was and 2010 through 3009 has been added. Don't know if the game will use them but if it does this should fix the future fictional red number challenge. Any help testing this file would be appreciated.

Historical leagues like 15 times the original cash max amount, fictional leagues like at least 20 best. As there are many more fictional players that historical I overed historical and slightly undered fictional.

tysok · 06-15-2009, 02:48 PM

I think this thread can be closed.
There were a couple arbitration bugs found and supposedly fixed that may have hurt the AI finances. If the problem persists after the patch we'll continue hunting the problem down... for now I don't think the thread is doing anything.

06-07-2009, 08:48 AM	#1 (permalink)
beorn All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: near Rochester, NY Posts: 953 Thanks: 18 Thanked 39x in 26 posts	AI finances After running several fictional test leagues over 50 years, using standard 2009 settings, I have come to the conclusion that the AI is not handling the finances correctly. Repeatedly, more than half the AI teams end up with cash below zero, often more than $20 million in the red. I saw this when I took part in the the OOTP9 beta and reported it, but never really looked at in the final OOTP9 final product because I played almost exclusively in online leagues. Whether this is the same problem continuing or a new issue, I cannot say. However, this thread makes the claim that in this year's beta, the problem disappeared as long as cash maximum was changed to $1 billion, so I tried that. The problem was not resolved. __________________ Commish of Dog Days Baseball Commish, GM PCBL Toronto Dogs GM NUEBL Texas Rangers GM MLBD Detroit Tigers GM CBU 2.0 Vermont Greens GM Asahi2 Chicago Cubs

06-07-2009, 10:18 AM	#2 (permalink)
beorn All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: near Rochester, NY Posts: 953 Thanks: 18 Thanked 39x in 26 posts	I also tried raising the typical media contract to $40 million, but initial testing shows that that also does not prevent more than half the AI teams from running red. __________________ Commish of Dog Days Baseball Commish, GM PCBL Toronto Dogs GM NUEBL Texas Rangers GM MLBD Detroit Tigers GM CBU 2.0 Vermont Greens GM Asahi2 Chicago Cubs

06-07-2009, 10:32 AM	#3 (permalink)
Nutlaw Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 9,529 Thanks: 79 Thanked 102x in 62 posts	This behavior is with otherwise default fictional finances, Beorn? __________________ BJHL: GM of the Manhattan Crime Occasional Contributor to The Cardinal Nation

06-07-2009, 11:08 AM	#4 (permalink)
beorn All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: near Rochester, NY Posts: 953 Thanks: 18 Thanked 39x in 26 posts	Yes, the only other setting I have played with is whether the owner decides over budget. I have tried it both ways with no difference in results, but I am about to try entire revenue available combined with higher media revenue plus extremely high cash max and see whether that combo makes a difference. __________________ Commish of Dog Days Baseball Commish, GM PCBL Toronto Dogs GM NUEBL Texas Rangers GM MLBD Detroit Tigers GM CBU 2.0 Vermont Greens GM Asahi2 Chicago Cubs

06-07-2009, 07:58 PM	#5 (permalink)
Nutlaw Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 9,529 Thanks: 79 Thanked 102x in 62 posts	Have you noticed this behavior? BZ 3203: Budget calculation error That would probably result in what you are seeing, yes? __________________ BJHL: GM of the Manhattan Crime Occasional Contributor to The Cardinal Nation

06-08-2009, 04:39 AM	#6 (permalink)
beorn All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: near Rochester, NY Posts: 953 Thanks: 18 Thanked 39x in 26 posts	No, I have not seen this. I just went through three saved game files and every team has media money coming in. I'd have to go back through history to see whether it had ever happened in the past, but I'm betting we have two separate issues. __________________ Commish of Dog Days Baseball Commish, GM PCBL Toronto Dogs GM NUEBL Texas Rangers GM MLBD Detroit Tigers GM CBU 2.0 Vermont Greens GM Asahi2 Chicago Cubs

06-08-2009, 03:09 PM	#7 (permalink)
Spritze Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Redmond Wa and Cape Coast Ghana Posts: 2,946 Thanks: 16 Thanked 344x in 242 posts	The issue appears to be that the cash max column is way too low. I raised it by 15 TIMES and financially things seem to have righted themselves. I am currently running a 100 year sim to test this out. So far so good, up to 1940. Not too much cash and hardly any teams go into the red and if they do they fight out of it in a year or two. Then I'll need to see if 12 times is better than 15 as 15 was just a WAG.

06-08-2009, 06:00 PM	#8 (permalink)
Nutlaw Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 9,529 Thanks: 79 Thanked 102x in 62 posts	Okay. When you settle on something, should we BZ a new recommended cash cap, then? __________________ BJHL: GM of the Manhattan Crime Occasional Contributor to The Cardinal Nation

06-09-2009, 01:13 PM	#10 (permalink)
Nutlaw Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 9,529 Thanks: 79 Thanked 102x in 62 posts	Presumably, 2009 is the default fictional setting? Did you log this? If so, what's the BZ? Or did you want me to log this? Thanks! __________________ BJHL: GM of the Manhattan Crime Occasional Contributor to The Cardinal Nation

06-09-2009, 01:49 PM	#11 (permalink)
Killebrew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 3,278 Thanks: 71 Thanked 15x in 11 posts	"AI is not handling the finances correctly" . Wouldn't RAISING the cash max cause the issues with AI teams going broke? It is true OOTP uses the cash max to limit profits but it also uses it to limit debt. Example: If you have a 100 million cash max your OOTP team cannot lose more than 100 million in the season. My understanding was this was a 'AI cheat' design decision, perhaps to allow long term test sims to go forward without constant finance tweaks from season to season. It seems to me that giving AI teams a hefty media contract and a lower cash max will result in the AI teams never going broke.

06-09-2009, 03:58 PM	#13 (permalink)
Spritze Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Redmond Wa and Cape Coast Ghana Posts: 2,946 Thanks: 16 Thanked 344x in 242 posts	Historical I tested at 12 times the original cash max. 25% of teams run out of budget room but no one runs out of cash. Historical I tested at 13 times the original cash max. 10% of teams run out of budget room but no one runs out of cash. Historical I tested at 15 times the original cash max. Very few teams run out of budget and no one runs out of cash. I didn't get time yesterday to test fictionals. All we need to find is whether 12, 13 or 15 or some other number works best for fictional. I'll test that this evening. Historical 2008 ended with team payrolls between 60 and 85 million and the highest player salary was 17.8 mil. Close enough?

06-15-2009, 02:48 PM	#15 (permalink)
tysok Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,924 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9x in 5 posts	I think this thread can be closed. There were a couple arbitration bugs found and supposedly fixed that may have hurt the AI finances. If the problem persists after the patch we'll continue hunting the problem down... for now I don't think the thread is doing anything. __________________ I don't know about you, but as for me, the question has already been answered: Should we be here? Yes! Jack Buck, September 17, 2001 It's what you learn after you know it all that counts. I firmly believe that any man's finest hour... is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious. (Vince Lombardi) I don't measure a man's success by how high he climbs but how high he bounces when he hits bottom. (George S. Patton)

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