Purchase of Contracts

[Le Grande Orange]

I'd like to see player purchases and player sales in the game as much as anyone, I just don't think of it on its own anymore. For me, it's part of a much larger set of interrelated features that, if done right, would allow for so much more. It's hard for me to look at it by itself...

[CBL-Commish]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Are you talking about when a major league club "purchases" the contract of a player from its minor league system to add him to the major league active list? That's not really a player purchase the way I would think of the term. When I think of player purchases, I think of reserve clause era baseball and the sale of players from one team to another, sometimes as a source of quick cash to the club selling the player.

This would also facilitate a financial system sort of like in European soccer, where trades are rare but buying and selling of players is commonplace. It's my impression that in most of the rest of the world and most other sports trades are uncommon, while purchasing players is the standard method of transfer from one team to another.

[Dr. P.R. Park III]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

I'd like to see player purchases and player sales in the game as much as anyone, I just don't think of it on its own anymore. For me, it's part of a much larger set of interrelated features that, if done right, would allow for so much more. It's hard for me to look at it by itself...

While I favor your ideas, LGO, I cannot favor your tenacious outlook of this revolutionary financial world you imagine. I have waited, and so have others, for this simple addition to the game. I don't see this game getting any better in a lot of areas I desire, which is fine, and unfortunately, I don't see it getting any better drastically in the ways you desire, as well. Instead of implementing a full fledged revolution and revised financial system in-game, it'd be easier to just implement one small thing at a time. I have a feeling that approach would work best with Markus's limitations as a programmer.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by CBL-Commish

This would also facilitate a financial system sort of like in European soccer, where trades are rare but buying and selling of players is commonplace. It's my impression that in most of the rest of the world and most other sports trades are uncommon, while purchasing players is the standard method of transfer from one team to another.

To really do the European soccer (football) system right would also require a fair amount of changes. The economics of the 'open' league system used in Europe is very different from that of the 'closed' league system used in North America.

In spite of such differences, I am trying to think of a system which would allow for either 'open' or 'closed' leagues to operate in OOTP with equal ease.

Originally Posted by Dr. P.R. Park III

While I favor your ideas, LGO, I cannot favor your tenacious outlook of this revolutionary financial world you imagine. I have waited, and so have others, for this simple addition to the game. I don't see this game getting any better in a lot of areas I desire, which is fine, and unfortunately, I don't see it getting any better drastically in the ways you desire, as well. Instead of implementing a full fledged revolution and revised financial system in-game, it'd be easier to just implement one small thing at a time.

Oh, I totally understand that point of view. I just tend to think very much in "big picture" mode, and am always thinking a version or two ahead. The piece-by-piece approach is certainly reasonable; my only concern is that the foundation upon which that approach rests is structured so that it allows all possibilities, rather than it inadvertantly limiting what can eventually be done because some future possibilities weren't considered when the foundation was laid. So I'm trying to point out all the considerations that any foundation should take into account.

I ran into that sort of thing when putting together the customizable playoffs proposal. I started off with an initial system, but found it was inadequate to handle certain playoff situations and scenarios I found out about later, so I had to go back and revise the initial structure to account for them.

[Dr. P.R. Park III]

Pre-Ordered OOTP10. This to hoping I can purchase contracts by OOTP 12.

[Markus Heinsohn]

How should this feature work?

[Dr. P.R. Park III]

Without trying to complicate the basics, and to avoid looking like a moron, I'm thinking there should be a checkable box in the Game Setup, which says something like: "Allow purchase of contracts from Unaffiliated Leagues", this option could be very similar to the "Allow Trades With Other Major Leagues," option. If the box is checked, then the game recognizes whichever leagues aren't affiliated (simulating independent leagues) with any parent league, and allows for an option to purchase the contract of individual players. I'm thinking if you're viewing the roster of an independent league team, and you right click on a player you want to inquire about, there should be an option that says "Purchase Contract." This tab takes you to a screen very similar to the Trade Screen...and the Major league team can only offer money for a player's contract. Then in response the indie league team would get back to the major league team in a few days. I'm thinking the feature could be coded very similar to trading, but with only the exchange of one player for cash. An indie team could either accept or deny the purchase, but the AI should be able to differeniate between a "Trade" and a "Purchase," meaning the game understands a difference between the two, and that the AI will also actively purchase contracts of players. I have never seen an AI to AI deal where one player was traded for only cash. Player purchases are never rejected by an indie team, because they simply need the money, and this feature could totally improve the historical financials in a lot of peoples opinion.

I really hope this makes sense, and thanks for asking.

If someone reading out there has any better ideas, that provide more clarity, please throw fuel to the fire.

[Nutlaw]

Originally Posted by Dr. P.R. Park III

Without trying to complicate the basics, and to avoid looking like a moron, I'm thinking there should be a checkable box in the Game Setup, which says something like: "Allow purchase of contracts from Unaffiliated Leagues", this option could be very similar to the "Allow Trades With Other Major Leagues," option. If the box is checked, then the game recognizes whichever leagues aren't affiliated (simulating independent leagues) with any parent league, and allows for an option to purchase the contract of individual players. I'm thinking if you're viewing the roster of an independent league team, and you right click on a player you want to inquire about, there should be an option that says "Purchase Contract." This tab takes you to a screen very similar to the Trade Screen...and the Major league team can only offer money for a player's contract. Then in response the indie league team would get back to the major league team in a few days. I'm thinking the feature could be coded very similar to trading, but with only the exchange of one player for cash. An indie team could either accept or deny the purchase, but the AI should be able to differeniate between a "Trade" and a "Purchase," meaning the game understands a difference between the two, and that the AI will also actively purchase contracts of players. I have never seen an AI to AI deal where one player was traded for only cash. Player purchases are never rejected by an indie team, because they simply need the money, and this feature could totally improve the historical financials in a lot of peoples opinion.

I really hope this makes sense, and thanks for asking.

If someone reading out there has any better ideas, that provide more clarity, please throw fuel to the fire.

Would we need the new team and player to renegotiate a contract in addition to the original team getting paid? I don't know how MLB's agreements with the indep leagues work.

Honestly, FM does this sort of thing fairly well, if you ever tinkered with that game during your collaboration with SI, Markus.

You could do proper Fall, Winter, and even WBC leagues without a whole lot more fuss if you created a field to represent a player's loan team. The player remains under contract with his original team, but shows up on roster of the loan team for the remainder of the loan (or simply the remainder of the loan team's season, more likely), after which he is returned to the roster of team whose contract he is under.

Then, you'd just need prompts either from the players or for each team at the start of each Fall/Winter/WBCish league to approve of the loan move.

[Dr. P.R. Park III]

I think for simplicity sake, the major league team acquiring the player's contract would pay X amount for him, and then he would get an automatic minor league contract, and then if he were added to the 25 man roster, would get the league minimum. If this does get added, I think it could gradually be refined, like Arbitration, to more accurately reflect how the process works in real-life.

Also this way, teams wouldn't be getting a player for free (like the reserve roster), because they'd pay a lump sum amount of money for a player, and he would automatically get a minor league deal.

[MB.Pelicans]

Originally Posted by Dr. P.R. Park III

Without trying to complicate the basics, and to avoid looking like a moron, I'm thinking there should be a checkable box in the Game Setup, which says something like: "Allow purchase of contracts from Unaffiliated Leagues", this option could be very similar to the "Allow Trades With Other Major Leagues," option. If the box is checked, then the game recognizes whichever leagues aren't affiliated (simulating independent leagues) with any parent league, and allows for an option to purchase the contract of individual players. I'm thinking if you're viewing the roster of an independent league team, and you right click on a player you want to inquire about, there should be an option that says "Purchase Contract." This tab takes you to a screen very similar to the Trade Screen...and the Major league team can only offer money for a player's contract. Then in response the indie league team would get back to the major league team in a few days. I'm thinking the feature could be coded very similar to trading, but with only the exchange of one player for cash. An indie team could either accept or deny the purchase, but the AI should be able to differeniate between a "Trade" and a "Purchase," meaning the game understands a difference between the two, and that the AI will also actively purchase contracts of players. I have never seen an AI to AI deal where one player was traded for only cash. Player purchases are never rejected by an indie team, because they simply need the money, and this feature could totally improve the historical financials in a lot of peoples opinion.

I really hope this makes sense, and thanks for asking.

If someone reading out there has any better ideas, that provide more clarity, please throw fuel to the fire.

to build on this,

I would like to see an option added to leagues that would make it set to automatically accept or reject such offers, because in reality, no independent league team would say no, because they wouldnt stand in a player's way to get back to organized ball. Yet, when a Japanese, or other foreign league buy a fringe minor leaguer, they do negotiate the deal with the Major league team.

[haveband]

Originally Posted by Nutlaw

Would we need the new team and player to renegotiate a contract in addition to the original team getting paid? I don't know how MLB's agreements with the indep leagues work.

Honestly, FM does this sort of thing fairly well, if you ever tinkered with that game during your collaboration with SI, Markus.

You could do proper Fall, Winter, and even WBC leagues without a whole lot more fuss if you created a field to represent a player's loan team. The player remains under contract with his original team, but shows up on roster of the loan team for the remainder of the loan (or simply the remainder of the loan team's season, more likely), after which he is returned to the roster of team whose contract he is under.

Then, you'd just need prompts either from the players or for each team at the start of each Fall/Winter/WBCish league to approve of the loan move.

I really like this idea.

hb

[Nutlaw]

Originally Posted by Dr. P.R. Park III

I think for simplicity sake, the major league team acquiring the player's contract would pay X amount for him, and then he would get an automatic minor league contract, and then if he were added to the 25 man roster, would get the league minimum. If this does get added, I think it could gradually be refined, like Arbitration, to more accurately reflect how the process works in real-life.

Also this way, teams wouldn't be getting a player for free (like the reserve roster), because they'd pay a lump sum amount of money for a player, and he would automatically get a minor league deal.

Yeah, that would make a lot of sense.

Originally Posted by MB.Pelicans

to build on this,

I would like to see an option added to leagues that would make it set to automatically accept or reject such offers, because in reality, no independent league team would say no, because they wouldnt stand in a player's way to get back to organized ball. Yet, when a Japanese, or other foreign league buy a fringe minor leaguer, they do negotiate the deal with the Major league team.

Well, we'd need to more clearly define the current Major League Level as the majors and either add Independent League Level or convert International or Winter League levels to serve the function. There'd need to be a stricter hierarchy, regardless.

[Dr. P.R. Park III]

Nutlaw,
I agree with you on creating a league level designated for Independent ball, but I'm thinking the Winter League discussion is for a future version, many moons away. Hopefully our input will help point Markus in a direction that puts this in the game, or atleast a future patch for OOTP 10.

Also M.B. Pelicans, most foreign league teams end up signing marginal minor league free agents, so they usually don't have to negotiate directly with the major league team. There are exceptions, like Rasner from the Yankees to the Tohaku Golden Eagles, this basically worked out like a purchased contract, but those are pretty rare. Usually a MLB team will just go ahead and release a player if the player is interested in playing in a foreign league (usually Japan), but usually the player is obligated to commit to a certain team for a certain length, and the MLB franchise would still retain the players N. American rights.

[MB.Pelicans]

Originally Posted by Nutlaw

Well, we'd need to more clearly define the current Major League Level as the majors and either add Independent League Level or convert International or Winter League levels to serve the function. There'd need to be a stricter hierarchy, regardless.

a simple optional setting to A) accept all purchase offers B) decline all or C) Negotiate all offers would be a simple shortcut in the league options to get around this.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Nutlaw

Well, we'd need to more clearly define the current Major League Level as the majors and either add Independent League Level or convert International or Winter League levels to serve the function. There'd need to be a stricter hierarchy, regardless.

I was going to post something which expanded considerably on this, but in the course of writing it I realized it needed more refining, so I'll post it at some future point.

[MB.Pelicans]

If it leads into your ideas for league affliliations, then I loved what I've read so far, do you think bits and pieces could be brought in to allow things like purchases and loans now, without a total overhaul since that doesnt seem possible for version 10?

[Nutlaw]

Originally Posted by MB.Pelicans

a simple optional setting to A) accept all purchase offers B) decline all or C) Negotiate all offers would be a simple shortcut in the league options to get around this.

Ah, but accept purchase offers from whom? Certainly an independent league player wouldn't want to move to another (possibly lesser) independent league.

[Dr. P.R. Park III]

...

[Dr. P.R. Park III]

How about a checkable box in Game Options for "Allow Purchase of Players from Unaffiliated Leagues." With that checked, another group of drop-down menus pop up...where the user picks the number of and which Unaffiliated Leagues allow Purchase of Players. If an unaffiliated league is unselected, by default, that league would reject all purchase offers. If they are selected, they will negotiate amount.

To actually purchase player contract, right click on player, an option says "Purchase Players Contract," this takes you to a screen very similar to the Trade screen.

Once the purchase has been completed, the player automatically gets a minor league contract, until he is added to the 25 man roster.

How does this seem?

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by MB.Pelicans

If it leads into your ideas for league affliliations, then I loved what I've read so far...

Basically, I was going to remark on Nutlaw's comment about the need for a better league heirarchy structure.

While perhaps in the short term that might solve the immediate issues, I think in the longer term that addressing things in terms of heirarchy actually misses the point of how a league envirnonment ought to be set up. What really matters is not the standing of a league within a given heirarchy, but rather the specific way in which one league relates to and interacts with another. And that manner of interaction is independent of the particular classification or ranking of a given league.

If one looks at baseball history, one can define several different ways in which leagues have chosen to govern their interactions with other leagues. The main ones would be the following:

No relationship. The leagues have no formal relationship. This means neither league respects either the player contract reservation nor territorial rights of the other. Teams of one league are thus free to put clubs in cities of the other league, are are free to raid the rosters of teams in the other league to lure players away. Think MLB-Federal League in 1914-15 or MLB-Mexican League in 1946 for an idea of what it's like.

Mutual recognition. Each league recognizes the other, and agrees to respect the other's territorial and player reservation rights, but beyond that, have no rules governing how players move between the leagues via trades or sales. Likewise, there are no provisions for a common player draft (either amateur or Rule 5).

Posting relationship. Leagues have mutual recognition, as described above, plus there are rules which allow players to be moved between leagues via the 'posting' system, as currently used to govern how players move from the Japanese leagues to MLB clubs. (The posting system is very similar to the transfer system used in European football [soccer].)

Associated relationship. Leagues mutually recognize each other, and have rules which allow players to be freely traded or sold from one league to the other (within the relevant waiver limitations). The leagues can also hold a common player draft, be it amateur or Rule 5. The AL-NL relationship since 1903 is the main example. (Ideally, you'd put leagues together in dedicated assocations in OOTP rather than select this relationship category specifically. Having assocations would make it easier to organize and manage leagues in the game.)

Developmental relationship. Leagues mutually recongnize each other's territory and player rights, but one league willingly chooses to subordinate itself to the other league and serve as the developmental arm of the other league. The higher level league can choose to option players to clubs in the lower league, and can form working agreements/player development contracts with clubs in the lower status league. In other words, the relationship between MLB and the National Assocation and its member minor leagues.

There are probably a few other relationship categories one might define, depending on how exact one wants to get.

The independent leagues fall somewhere between the no relationship/posting relationship categories. MLB teams could, theoretically, raid the rosters of independent clubs, unless there is some sort of agreement between MLB and independent leagues not to do so (I'm not sure if there is, but if there is, I'd very much like to see what specifically it says). In earlier times, independent leagues were called outlaw leagues since they were outside the rules and regulations of organized baseball, that is, the agreements which existed between MLB and the NA.

The point of all this is that OOTP should recreate this fundamental aspect of how real-world leagues interact by allowing the user to select, for each league or association, the specific way it will interact with each other league or association in that particular OOTP universe. Thus, you could choose to have League A relate in one manner to League B while interacting in a different way with League C. This method best emulates how leagues have interacted in the real world.

Originally Posted by MB.Pelicans

...do you think bits and pieces could be brought in to allow things like purchases and loans now, without a total overhaul since that doesnt seem possible for version 10?

Only Markus knows for sure. I've long since stopped trying to predict what's easy or hard for him to code.

But having a longer view roadmap as to what could be or should be added to the game is still useful in my view. And threads like this are great for stimulating that kind of discussion.

Originally Posted by Dr. P.R. Park III

How about a checkable box in Game Options for "Allow Purchase of Players from Unaffiliated Leagues." With that checked, another group of drop-down menus pop up...where the user picks the number of and which Unaffiliated Leagues allow Purchase of Players. If an unaffiliated league is unselected, by default, that league would reject all purchase offers. If they are selected, they will negotiate amount.

To actually purchase player contract, right click on player, an option says "Purchase Players Contract," this takes you to a screen very similar to the Trade screen.

Once the purchase has been completed, the player automatically gets a minor league contract, until he is added to the 25 man roster.

How does this seem?

Seems pretty good to me.

Though I do wonder how this function would impact the finances of leagues doing the selling. Might need to be some AI/balancing work done in that regard...