OOTP X and the new Baseball-Reference

[attackemu]

Okay, so I don't know how many of you know about the in-beta new baseball-reference layout, but it's pretty amazing. One of the things it has is the ability to make data available in CSV format, as you can see right here.

I don't know anything about the way OOTP imports from CSV, but is it the same? If so, does this open the door for a database that includes totally accurate minor leagues for every year where there's enough data?

[attackemu]

dola,

There also exists the SABR Minor League Database. Is there a way to use this to make a similar database? There are no stats/limited stats for players before the mid-90s, but still.

[swampdragon]

Baseball-reference stats for the minors come from the SABR Minor League Database. Give it a few years, and we'll be able to use those to make our own stats databases for OOTP, but it will still be a ton of work. I bet that right now you could theoretically do AAA back to 1950 or so, but I'm not smart enough to know how to automate the process.

[attackemu]

Yeah, it has come to my attention that the CSV imports into OOTP require Lahmann style formatting, including the name format and the NL/AL league choices. Maybe Markus will see this and think about opening up the way the game imports a little bit?

[Syd Thrift]

aaaaaaand there are lefty/righty splits for individual hitters. Now THAT would be a nice thing to bring to future editions.

[attackemu]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

aaaaaaand there are lefty/righty splits for individual hitters. Now THAT would be a nice thing to bring to future editions.

Yeah, even though I now know that the data isn't really usable in its current form, I think it still makes sense for Markus to look at it and say, "Wow! Look at all the data available! How can I make it so I can import it into my game to make historical simulations unbelievably awesome!"

I mean, with the info available, as swampdragon said, it shouldn't be long before we're able to import 1903, say, and get not only the majors but any of the active minor leagues of the day also imported. For historical simmers, this is a goldmine.

[fantom1979]

I was hoping that this would be a "I hope the almanac looks like BR" thread. I really think there is room for improvement with the almanac. The closer it looks to BR, the better.

[Kelric]

I love the new functionality, but I prefer the old look of BRef. Ah well. And yes, the closer the Almanac is to BR, the better.

[The Wolf]

I'd like to see OOTP to be able to use the minor league data to generate accurate minor leagues (league names and structure, team names and nicknames) whenever historical leagues are created. The data is out there, it wouldn't be that hard to do, and it would really benefit historical OOTP players.

[StyxNCa]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

I'd like to see OOTP to be able to use the minor league data to generate accurate minor leagues (league names and structure, team names and nicknames) whenever historical leagues are created. The data is out there, it wouldn't be that hard to do, and it would really benefit historical OOTP players.

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[Kelric]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

I'd like to see OOTP to be able to use the minor league data to generate accurate minor leagues (league names and structure, team names and nicknames) whenever historical leagues are created. The data is out there, it wouldn't be that hard to do, and it would really benefit historical OOTP players.

[canadiancreed]

and vote #4. Would add a nice plus to historical leagues for sure.

[Afino]

I'm not even a historical player, but I'd like to add vote #5 just to make OOTP more awesome.

[kingpin1976]

me too plus pad my posts

[attackemu]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

I'd like to see OOTP to be able to use the minor league data to generate accurate minor leagues (league names and structure, team names and nicknames) whenever historical leagues are created. The data is out there, it wouldn't be that hard to do, and it would really benefit historical OOTP players.

Yeah, this is exactly what I have in mind. When I play historical leagues, it annoys me too much to play with fictional minor leagues so I end up doing all of that manually. It is frustrating because a) it's incredibly tedious and b) the league affiliates change so damn much, I either have to accept inaccuracy going forward or continue with a tedious process every year of the historical league. If that was automated, historical leagues would be infinitely better.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

I'd like to see OOTP to be able to use the minor league data to generate accurate minor leagues (league names and structure, team names and nicknames) whenever historical leagues are created. The data is out there, it wouldn't be that hard to do, and it would really benefit historical OOTP players.

Ultimately, yes.

But NOT as OOTP currently handles minor leagues. It needs a considerable overhaul in both the league interaction area and the financial system area before the game can properly and truly recreate the long and varied history of the minor leagues and its relationship to the majors. The game still treats minor leagues as appendages of the majors, and that's got to change if the true nature of the historical evolvement of the major-minor story is to be captured by OOTP. (It should be noted any such overhaul would be a boon to fictional players as well as historical players.)

Then there's the question of the historically accurate schedules for all those minor leagues...

[thbroman]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Ultimately, yes.

But NOT as OOTP currently handles minor leagues. It needs a considerable overhaul in both the league interaction area and the financial system area before the game can properly and truly recreate the long and varied history of the minor leagues and its relationship to the majors. The game still treats minor leagues as appendages of the majors, and that's got to change if the true nature of the historical evolvement of the major-minor story is to be captured by OOTP. (It should be noted any such overhaul would be a boon to fictional players as well as historical players.)

Then there's the question of the historically accurate schedules for all those minor leagues...

I could live with the schedules being abstracted and standardized, to be honest, but is there any hint that the rest of this is on Markus's to do list for a future version?

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Ultimately, yes.

But NOT as OOTP currently handles minor leagues. It needs a considerable overhaul in both the league interaction area and the financial system area before the game can properly and truly recreate the long and varied history of the minor leagues and its relationship to the majors. The game still treats minor leagues as appendages of the majors, and that's got to change if the true nature of the historical evolvement of the major-minor story is to be captured by OOTP. (It should be noted any such overhaul would be a boon to fictional players as well as historical players.)

Then there's the question of the historically accurate schedules for all those minor leagues...

I also could live without accurate schedules, but not without the right leagues, teams and nicknames.

[attackemu]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

I also could live without accurate schedules, but not without the right leagues, teams and nicknames.

Yeah, exactly. As LGO says, though, some work on the way minor leagues (and winter leagues) behave in the game is gonna be necessary for that. I also don't really think, with the amount of information that exists on the subject, it's overly ambitious to say we could even have accurate minor league rosters, at least from a certain point.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

I also could live without accurate schedules, but not without the right leagues, teams and nicknames.

It goes well beyond that though, which is my point. Consider: over the history of the minors there have been many cases of clubs changing leagues, as well as a great many clubs which folded and were replaced by other clubs (not to mention the numerous instances of leagues coming into being and later folding).

Here's a good example.

After the 1962 season, two of the clubs in the American Association folded, while a new club was formed. However, the league subsequently folded. Of the five existing clubs, two moved to the International League and the other three to the Pacific Coast League for 1963. After the 1963 season concluded, the two AA clubs that had switched to the IL moved over to the PCL.

Then, after the 1968 season, the American Association was reformed. Of the five original AA clubs in the PCL, one had folded, leaving four. These four clubs then moved out of the PCL and into the new AA; two expansion teams were also added, bringing the league to six clubs. The PCL, meanwhile, also had two clubs fold, leaving it with just six teams, half of what it had had during the season. An expansion team was formed, and the Eugene club from the Northwest League moved over to the PCL, bringing the league to eight clubs (the NWL replaced Eugene with an expansion team).

This is just one example of the kinds of club and league changes that have gone on.

OOTP cannot, as yet, even handle the major league instances of clubs and leagues arising and folding that happened in the 19th century, let alone what the minors have to offer in that regard. So in order for it to really handle the minors, it'll need to be able to handle without issue both clubs and leagues being formed and later folding. There would also need to be some sort of "franchise ID" database put together, much like there is for major league baseball, that would track all the various team shifts from one league to another, and from one city to another (plenty of those to account for as well).

Then there's the whole question of the changing way the majors and minors have interacted, and the finances too.

Make no mistake, what Baseball Reference has on offer is an excellent starting point, as is the SABR Minor League database. But there's still much to consider and much to do.

If such a thing is to be tackled for OOTP, I would suggest starting with just the Class AAA level of the minors and getting that all set up properly, with the necessary "franchise ID" tracking and everything else. That'll provide some good insight into the nature and scale of the task from the information/data perspective.