OOTP 19th Century Accuracy Issues

scott07 · 04-02-2009, 02:40 PM

Historically speaking some things in OOTP are completely off and for accuracy purposes need to be changed. While they do an ok job of recreating the 19th century it has a lot of errors in places like strategy and when actually managing a 19th century OOTP game. However seeing as the game is meant for use only from 1871 onward, I will only mention the discrepancies found in that period.

1. The Walkoff Hit - Not until 1880 was this allowed. Before hand you were subject to forfeit if you did not play the bottom of the 9th or complete the 9th regardless if the game's outcome had already been decided.

2. Home Team Batting - In the 1800's it wasn't uncommon for a home team to bat first. The decision of who batted was decided via a coin flip for the most part and not until the early 1900's was it an unwritten acception that the home team would bat last. In fact not until 1950 was this written into the rulebook.

3. Substitutions - OOTP really is missing accuracy here. In an 1871 sim the settings are set wrong. It says pinch running and hitting are done often. Incorrect. Substitutions for strategic purposes were illegal in the 1870's. In fact only for an injury would a sub be allowed and even then it caused a fight. Not until 1889 were substitutions made legal at a limit of one per game. In 1890, two was allowed. In 1891 the current amount of unlimited subbing was put into effect.

4. Bunting - While sometimes used in the early 1870's it was a completely lost art from 1876 until 1886 when Arlie Latham and Johnny Ward were incorrectly credited with it's invention by a newspaper artical which said they had never seen it before because of it's complete disuse for over a decade.

5. Hit by Pitch - While runners were allowed to attempt advancing a base on an HBP, not until 1887 was the batter allowed to take first when being hit.

6. Squeeze Play - Not until 1905 was this seen to become commonplace as the New York Highlanders made it popular. In 1907 it was used 108 times all year, 87 times in the AL.

7. Hit and Run - While used in the 1880's (not really at all in the 1870's) it was a very small amount and not until roughly 1895 that this became a large part of team strategy.

In closing these may be small issues but were a very large part of the 1800's style game that was played. Seeing any of these things tweaked for OOTP 10 would be nice but probably doubtful.

Cryomaniac · 04-02-2009, 02:50 PM

I doubt the substitution thing will change, because of how the game works. There could be movement on the others though.

BaseballMan · 04-02-2009, 03:09 PM

Yeah it would take some effort from Markus to correct those things because its basically a different game from modern era. But i dont think Markus really has any intention of doing that. I cant blame him since i doubt that he ever intended to have 19th century leagues.
Just not being able to have odd number of teams can mess the historical aspect up cause now teams are playing different number of games and one may have more pitchers.
Isnt a big deal in modern leagues with 10 pitchers on a team but when most of the league has 1 and one team has 2 it could make a difference. Then again it seems like the AI would just go with 1 man rotation and leave the other pitcher to closing even if you have it set on 2 man rotation.

dcpcarmona · 04-02-2009, 04:38 PM

I'm not a designer by any means, but for the sub. issue couldn't there be a check box for pre-1900 in the league settings to limit sub. to situations for injury only? Like I said, I'm not a designer and not sure if this is feasible, but it would be nice to have settings reflect play during this time as close as possible for those of us who enjoy playing during this time. Like they say, just my worthless $ 0.02.

dcc

BaseballMan · 04-02-2009, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcpcarmona

I'm not a designer by any means, but for the sub. issue couldn't there be a check box for pre-1900 in the league settings to limit sub. to situations for injury only? Like I said, I'm not a designer and not sure if this is feasible, but it would be nice to have settings reflect play during this time as close as possible for those of us who enjoy playing during this time. Like they say, just my worthless $ 0.02.

dcc

I like that idea. I think for us to get the best from 19th century leagues Markus needs to realize that the game is almost totally different from modern era.
However since he never included the option to start a 19th century league until recently im not sure how much effort he would be willing to put into it. I cant blame if he never intended to have it in the first place but a good look at the 19th century problems would be nice if he has the time.

satchel · 04-02-2009, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

...if he has the time.

It's all a question of priorities. It's a testament to the quality of the game that peripheral issues like this can even be entertained at all. Can you imagine fans of Front Office Football asking to be able to play the pre-1900 game? They'd be laughed out of the forum.

BaseballMan · 04-02-2009, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by satchel

It's all a question of priorities. It's a testament to the quality of the game that peripheral issues like this can even be entertained at all. Can you imagine fans of Front Office Football asking to be able to play the pre-1900 game? They'd be laughed out of the forum.

Oh yeah i understand that and like i said i dont think Markus ever intended to have the option so i cant blame him if he didnt spend any time on it. I was just
saying i dont know how much can be corrected until he has the time to spend on it.

Eckstein 4 Prez · 04-02-2009, 06:24 PM

Yeah, the only one of these that seems realistic is the substitution rate, which definitely needs some tweaking. I'd like to see an option to check "only have AI substitute in case of injury" or something.

The rest of this... well, I was pleasantly surprised to no longer have to use workarounds to replay the 1870s and 1880s. I know there are very few of us who really care about simming the 19th century.

satchel · 04-02-2009, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eckstein 4 Prez

The rest of this... well, I was pleasantly surprised to no longer have to use workarounds to replay the 1870s and 1880s. I know there are very few of us who really care about simming the 19th century.

I don't want to give the impression that I disregard the value of the simulation of 19th century base ball. As evidence, I offer my TCBA ownership (link in my sig, above), from 1871 to present. I do want to see it as accurate as possible.

BaseballMan · 04-02-2009, 09:53 PM

Btw if anyone is interested ive been creating a spreadsheet of players who retired and another when they returned. Dont know if it Makes any
difference. Still its nice to be able to have the players play the same amount of years as they did in real life. Im up to 1879. It doesnt take as long as i thought
to do a year since all i have to do is look at the new debuts each year.
I just cant get use to a player that debuted in 1876 and retired til 1884 to play one more season. In reality he played 2 seasons but the game will see 9 seasons.

adamosity · 04-06-2009, 11:38 AM

you see, he didn't retire.

in the 1870's/80's, there wasn't all that much difference between the "majors" and the "minors." Many players could make more money playing in a non-major league.

Up to the 1950's, it was common for a player to play a few years in lower leagues after finishing their major league career, and many players could play twenty minor league years and have a decent career earnings-wise. The gap was perhaps 2 or 3 to 1, compared to 50+ to 1 now.

I'd just like to have accurate rosters for the 19th century, as well as a better handling of players who pitched and played the field.

I think the effort needed to truly make accurate rules would far outweigh the results in the game, given the relatively low numbers of players who play it. I'd rather see the effort go towards other issues.

One issue I have with games in the late 1800's/early 1900's is a lack of players. Even playing, say, in 1910, the average roster is well under 20.

Le Grande Orange · 04-06-2009, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adamosity

Up to the 1950's, it was common for a player to play a few years in lower leagues after finishing their major league career, and many players could play twenty minor league years and have a decent career earnings-wise. The gap was perhaps 2 or 3 to 1, compared to 50+ to 1 now.

That's right. The Oct. 31, 1958, issue of The Sporting News reported on monthly salaries in the minors, as determined by the Celler report.

Code:

1950 MONTHLY SALARY BY CLASSIFICATION

     Lowest  Highest  Average   Median
--------------------------------------
MLB   $893   $16,071   $2,373   $1,964
AAA   $200   $ 4,000   $  876   $  850
AA    $300   $ 4,200   $  639   $  600
A     $100   $ 1,555   $  391   $  350
D     $ 80   $ 1,000   $  192   $  165


1950 MONTHLY SALARY BY LEAGUE

Class  League                 Average   Median  Length of Season
----------------------------------------------------------------
 ML    Major League Baseball   $2,373   $1,964     5.6 months
----------------------------------------------------------------
 AAA   Pacific Coast League    $  978   $  917     6.5 months
 AAA   American Association    $  814   $  750     4.9 months
 AAA   International League    $  832   $  800     4.8 months
----------------------------------------------------------------
 AA    Texas League            $  641   $  600     5.1 months
 AA    Southern Association    $  654   $  550     5.0 months
----------------------------------------------------------------
 A     Eastern League          $  432   $  400     4.6 months
 A     Western League          $  391   $  350     4.9 months

The Wolf · 04-06-2009, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by satchel

Can you imagine fans of Front Office Football asking to be able to play the pre-1900 game? They'd be laughed out of the forum.

Oh, you saw that happen to me?

04-02-2009, 02:40 PM	#1 (permalink)
scott07 Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 20	OOTP 19th Century Accuracy Issues Historically speaking some things in OOTP are completely off and for accuracy purposes need to be changed. While they do an ok job of recreating the 19th century it has a lot of errors in places like strategy and when actually managing a 19th century OOTP game. However seeing as the game is meant for use only from 1871 onward, I will only mention the discrepancies found in that period. 1. The Walkoff Hit - Not until 1880 was this allowed. Before hand you were subject to forfeit if you did not play the bottom of the 9th or complete the 9th regardless if the game's outcome had already been decided. 2. Home Team Batting - In the 1800's it wasn't uncommon for a home team to bat first. The decision of who batted was decided via a coin flip for the most part and not until the early 1900's was it an unwritten acception that the home team would bat last. In fact not until 1950 was this written into the rulebook. 3. Substitutions - OOTP really is missing accuracy here. In an 1871 sim the settings are set wrong. It says pinch running and hitting are done often. Incorrect. Substitutions for strategic purposes were illegal in the 1870's. In fact only for an injury would a sub be allowed and even then it caused a fight. Not until 1889 were substitutions made legal at a limit of one per game. In 1890, two was allowed. In 1891 the current amount of unlimited subbing was put into effect. 4. Bunting - While sometimes used in the early 1870's it was a completely lost art from 1876 until 1886 when Arlie Latham and Johnny Ward were incorrectly credited with it's invention by a newspaper artical which said they had never seen it before because of it's complete disuse for over a decade. 5. Hit by Pitch - While runners were allowed to attempt advancing a base on an HBP, not until 1887 was the batter allowed to take first when being hit. 6. Squeeze Play - Not until 1905 was this seen to become commonplace as the New York Highlanders made it popular. In 1907 it was used 108 times all year, 87 times in the AL. 7. Hit and Run - While used in the 1880's (not really at all in the 1870's) it was a very small amount and not until roughly 1895 that this became a large part of team strategy. In closing these may be small issues but were a very large part of the 1800's style game that was played. Seeing any of these things tweaked for OOTP 10 would be nice but probably doubtful. Last edited by scott07; 04-02-2009 at 02:43 PM.

04-02-2009, 02:50 PM	#2 (permalink)
Cryomaniac Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2007 Location: Newark, Notts, UK Posts: 2,729 Thanked 243x in 192 posts	I doubt the substitution thing will change, because of how the game works. There could be movement on the others though. __________________

04-02-2009, 04:38 PM	#4 (permalink)
dcpcarmona All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: at the New Moon Posts: 1,288 Thanked 25x in 23 posts	I'm not a designer by any means, but for the sub. issue couldn't there be a check box for pre-1900 in the league settings to limit sub. to situations for injury only? Like I said, I'm not a designer and not sure if this is feasible, but it would be nice to have settings reflect play during this time as close as possible for those of us who enjoy playing during this time. Like they say, just my worthless $ 0.02. dcc __________________ "People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." -Rogers Hornsby

04-02-2009, 06:24 PM	#8 (permalink)
Eckstein 4 Prez Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: The OC Posts: 5,514 Thanked 42x in 30 posts	Yeah, the only one of these that seems realistic is the substitution rate, which definitely needs some tweaking. I'd like to see an option to check "only have AI substitute in case of injury" or something. The rest of this... well, I was pleasantly surprised to no longer have to use workarounds to replay the 1870s and 1880s. I know there are very few of us who really care about simming the 19th century. __________________ Looking for an insomnia cure? Check out The Olde Tyme Base Ball Simulator!

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04-02-2009, 03:09 PM	#3 (permalink)
BaseballMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 3,474 Thanked 82x in 55 posts	Yeah it would take some effort from Markus to correct those things because its basically a different game from modern era. But i dont think Markus really has any intention of doing that. I cant blame him since i doubt that he ever intended to have 19th century leagues. Just not being able to have odd number of teams can mess the historical aspect up cause now teams are playing different number of games and one may have more pitchers. Isnt a big deal in modern leagues with 10 pitchers on a team but when most of the league has 1 and one team has 2 it could make a difference. Then again it seems like the AI would just go with 1 man rotation and leave the other pitcher to closing even if you have it set on 2 man rotation.

04-02-2009, 09:53 PM	#10 (permalink)
BaseballMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 3,474 Thanked 82x in 55 posts	Btw if anyone is interested ive been creating a spreadsheet of players who retired and another when they returned. Dont know if it Makes any difference. Still its nice to be able to have the players play the same amount of years as they did in real life. Im up to 1879. It doesnt take as long as i thought to do a year since all i have to do is look at the new debuts each year. I just cant get use to a player that debuted in 1876 and retired til 1884 to play one more season. In reality he played 2 seasons but the game will see 9 seasons.

04-06-2009, 11:38 AM	#11 (permalink)
adamosity Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 66 Thanked 2x in 1 post	you see, he didn't retire. in the 1870's/80's, there wasn't all that much difference between the "majors" and the "minors." Many players could make more money playing in a non-major league. Up to the 1950's, it was common for a player to play a few years in lower leagues after finishing their major league career, and many players could play twenty minor league years and have a decent career earnings-wise. The gap was perhaps 2 or 3 to 1, compared to 50+ to 1 now. I'd just like to have accurate rosters for the 19th century, as well as a better handling of players who pitched and played the field. I think the effort needed to truly make accurate rules would far outweigh the results in the game, given the relatively low numbers of players who play it. I'd rather see the effort go towards other issues. One issue I have with games in the late 1800's/early 1900's is a lack of players. Even playing, say, in 1910, the average roster is well under 20.