Does Wally Berger belong in the Hall of Fame?

damonrusst · 06-01-2009, 12:23 AM

So I've nearly finished my season and am waiting to start a new one with OOTPX so I'm looking for stuff to pass the time until it's out. So pretend you're all sportswriters voting for the hall of fame. Need your help on Wally Berger who I lost mid season to a CEI. Asked this question in the OOTP9 forums but thought I'd ask again here while everyone is checking madly for the new game. The old discussion is here.
http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...-fame-not.html

Here's the situation: Over 8.5 seasons, he hit .317 with 1481 Hits, 274HRs and 982RBIs.

He also won 4MVPs, 4 Gold Gloves, played in 4 World Series with 3 different teams, winning 2 with 2 different teams, one in the American League, one in the National.

When he went down on July 30,1938, he was having one of his best seasons ever, hitting .349 with 25HR and 88RBI. Cut down in his prime.

At the time of the injury, he was 6th on the all time HR list, led the league in HR 4 times and had the sixth highest single season HR total with 52 behind only Joe DiMaggio with 62 and 4 Babe Ruth seasons.

552.4 career VORP over 8 1/2 seasons.

So cast your vote now, is he hall of fame worthy? I will induct solely based on your votes.

Kelric · 06-01-2009, 12:26 AM

The real Hall of Fame has a rule that a player must play ten or more seasons to be eligible. His numbers over that time show that he would most likely have been a Hall of Famer. The question is whether or not you want to have a minimum number of seasons. I like the ten year rule, so I would vote no. Without the ten year rule, yes.

damientheomen3 · 06-01-2009, 12:27 AM

Not a hard decision, he was a monster and would've made the hall on his own if injuries hadn't gotten in the way

jbergey22 · 06-01-2009, 12:42 AM

I have sympathy for a guy like this in that I was a huge Kirby Puckett fan and would have been pi$$ed if he hadnt gotten in.

I vote yes

jar2574 · 06-01-2009, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by damonrusst

So I've nearly finished my season and am waiting to start a new one with OOTPX so I'm looking for stuff to pass the time until it's out. So pretend you're all sportswriters voting for the hall of fame. Need your help on Wally Berger who I lost mid season to a CEI. Asked this question in the OOTP9 forums but thought I'd ask again here while everyone is checking madly for the new game. The old discussion is here.
http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...-fame-not.html

Here's the situation: Over 8.5 seasons, he hit .317 with 1481 Hits, 274HRs and 982RBIs.

He also won 4MVPs, 4 Gold Gloves, played in 4 World Series with 3 different teams, winning 2 with 2 different teams, one in the American League, one in the National.

When he went down on July 30,1938, he was having one of his best seasons ever, hitting .349 with 25HR and 88RBI. Cut down in his prime.

At the time of the injury, he was 6th on the all time HR list, led the league in HR 4 times and had the sixth highest single season HR total with 52 behind only Joe DiMaggio with 62 and 4 Babe Ruth seasons.

552.4 career VORP over 8 1/2 seasons.

So cast your vote now, is he hall of fame worthy? I will induct solely based on your votes.

4 MVPs, 4 World Series with 3 different teams. 4 time HR leader with a .317 lifetime average. Yeah, he should get in.

senorcoo · 06-01-2009, 10:31 AM

I agree with the sentiment that he WOULD have been a Hall of Fame lock. Unfortunately, taking into account the 10-year rule IRL, I would have to vote no. Remember, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Pete Rose, etc. SHOULD be in the Hall as well, but aren't. Different reasons, I know, but the Hall has rules.

struggles_mightily · 06-01-2009, 11:01 AM

The guy was one of the very best hitters in the league for a substantial period of time. The ten year rule is arbitrary. If human societies used an octal numbering system, the limit would be eight years and Berger would be in. Dumb.

He was good enough for long enough to be highly placed on important all-time leaders lists. It's not like he was around for one or two seasons; there aren't really 'sample size' issues with his playing record.

Go for it.

Edit to note: If the limit were eight years, then obviously that would be arbitrary too and not really any better. Surely the idea is to measure every guy's longevity against his ability and make case-by-case decisions that way?

Jose Cardenal's Afro · 06-01-2009, 11:22 AM

NO. I like the ten year rule. Putting someone in based on what they would have accomplished is not a good idea. If someone played 3 years had great numbers that when aggregated over 10 years would put him in the HOF, but had a CEI it takes away from what 10 year vets have done. There are plenty of people that had a couple meteoric years only to suck later. Maybe if you adopt a rule that someone played 7 or 8 years but was cut short due to an anjury you could make an injury exception or in the case of an extraordinary circumstance such as a plane crash. But he didn't put in the time. So no.

struggles_mightily · 06-01-2009, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jose Cardenal's Afro

NO. I like the ten year rule. Putting someone in based on what they would have accomplished is not a good idea.

If a guy is sixth on the all-time HR list, has four MVP awards and was just generally one of the best hitters of his generation, then you don't need to argue for him based on what he "would have accomplished".

TribeFanInNC · 06-01-2009, 11:48 AM

The 10 year rule is only for being elected. The veterans committee can do whatever they want.

Addie Joss is in the HoF and he only pitched 8.5 years. Sandy Koufax technically had 12 seasons, but that was only because he was a bonus baby and the Dodgers had to keep him on the roster. His first 2 years he had < 20 appearances each and he was marginal for the next couple seasons.

Definitely yes. 4 MVPs is a no brainer even if he only played five years.

struggles_mightily · 06-01-2009, 11:54 AM

Good point, TribeFan: Koufax was a name I was going to bring up in defense of Berger. It doesn't sound like Berger was quite as dominant as Sandy, but Koufax is a no-brainer for the Hall, and so sets a good precedent as regards playing time.

I'm not sure about guys like Joss, though. The Veteran's Committee is like the Universal Boxing Federation of baseball-honour giving (or something -- I hate analogies).

At least in an OOTP context, MVP awards mean something. They usually do get given to the best offensive player every year. If you asked OOTP about the AL MVP last year, I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't have cared about Joe Mauer being on the non-playoff-getting-to (and small market) Twins. In the real world, MVP awards are a bit more dubious due to the nature of the dummies who award them.

Jose Cardenal's Afro · 06-01-2009, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by struggles_mightily

If a guy is sixth on the all-time HR list, has four MVP awards and was just generally one of the best hitters of his generation, then you don't need to argue for him based on what he "would have accomplished".

That is true. I wasn't thinking in the context of his time frame. Taking that into account someone could say yes and put up a valid argument.

damonrusst · 06-01-2009, 03:16 PM

Thanks for all the input. Great stuff. Keep it coming.

FYI, I'm not proposing him for the HOF because he played for me for a long time. I got him for only two years of his eight and a half, lost two world series in 1934 and 1935 with him with the Red Sox, then we couldn't afford to resign him. This led to me getting fired after the next season. He won another series with the Senators in 1937 (he and DiMaggio a fearsome 3-4 combo), then I mortgaged my new team's future to bring him to St. Louis, only to have him fracture his skull making an acrobatic catch at the wall a few weeks later.

All MVP awards were decided by the OOTP AI. Only one was won while he was playing for me. The only award I select manually is a reliever award.

Keep the votes coming, his fate is in your hands.

damonrusst · 06-01-2009, 03:19 PM

He also won the series in 1933 with the Cincinnati Reds, killing my Cubs in hard fought season long NL battle, which again led to my firing. So this guy has been both boon and bane to me throughout this sim.

struggles_mightily · 06-01-2009, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by damonrusst

All MVP awards were decided by the OOTP AI. Only one was won while he was playing for me.

Did he deserve them?

damonrusst · 06-01-2009, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by struggles_mightily

Did he deserve them?

Yes, definitely. You couldn't argue that anyone else was more deserving.

mtopham · 06-01-2009, 04:01 PM

I had a similar situation with Rogers Hornsby, Great numbers, MVP's , World Series, cut down too early. I waved the rule. He played 7 years, career .340 hitter, suffered a CEI fractured skull. I went back two years later and reinstated him, but he played less than 1.5 years (hit .259, then I retired him after hitting .190 in 28 games year 2).

rogmax11 · 06-01-2009, 04:24 PM

No question in my mind: a resounding YES!

tysok · 06-01-2009, 04:29 PM

I wanted so badly to put this guy in my league's HOF...
http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...r-retires.html

But in the end I didn't. I wish I could have turned him into my manager, retired his number, and put him in my team's HOF... but none of that exists in OOTP so...

At least your guy has the numbers to back up a selection to the hall. I'd vote Yes.

Kelric · 06-01-2009, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tysok

But in the end I didn't. I wish I could have turned him into my manager, retired his number, and put him in my team's HOF... but none of that exists in OOTP so...

I look forward to the day of retired numbers and team HoFs in OOTP.

View Poll Results: Do I induct Wally Berger into the HOF or not?
Yes	53	68.83%
No	24	31.17%
Voters: 77. You may not vote on this poll

06-01-2009, 12:23 AM	#1 (permalink)
damonrusst Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 275 Thanked 2x in 2 posts	Does Wally Berger belong in the Hall of Fame? So I've nearly finished my season and am waiting to start a new one with OOTPX so I'm looking for stuff to pass the time until it's out. So pretend you're all sportswriters voting for the hall of fame. Need your help on Wally Berger who I lost mid season to a CEI. Asked this question in the OOTP9 forums but thought I'd ask again here while everyone is checking madly for the new game. The old discussion is here. http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...-fame-not.html Here's the situation: Over 8.5 seasons, he hit .317 with 1481 Hits, 274HRs and 982RBIs. He also won 4MVPs, 4 Gold Gloves, played in 4 World Series with 3 different teams, winning 2 with 2 different teams, one in the American League, one in the National. When he went down on July 30,1938, he was having one of his best seasons ever, hitting .349 with 25HR and 88RBI. Cut down in his prime. At the time of the injury, he was 6th on the all time HR list, led the league in HR 4 times and had the sixth highest single season HR total with 52 behind only Joe DiMaggio with 62 and 4 Babe Ruth seasons. 552.4 career VORP over 8 1/2 seasons. So cast your vote now, is he hall of fame worthy? I will induct solely based on your votes.

06-01-2009, 12:26 AM	#2 (permalink)
Kelric Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Greater Boston Area Posts: 3,982 Thanked 46x in 36 posts	The real Hall of Fame has a rule that a player must play ten or more seasons to be eligible. His numbers over that time show that he would most likely have been a Hall of Famer. The question is whether or not you want to have a minimum number of seasons. I like the ten year rule, so I would vote no. Without the ten year rule, yes. __________________ Former Co-Commish and owner of the Boston Red Sox, 1783-1144, .609%, of the defunct Overlords Baseball League (1930-48). 17 Division wins, 9 ALCS wins, 5 World Series wins.

06-01-2009, 11:01 AM	#7 (permalink)
struggles_mightily Minors (Double A) Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 195 Thanked 10x in 6 posts	The guy was one of the very best hitters in the league for a substantial period of time. The ten year rule is arbitrary. If human societies used an octal numbering system, the limit would be eight years and Berger would be in. Dumb. He was good enough for long enough to be highly placed on important all-time leaders lists. It's not like he was around for one or two seasons; there aren't really 'sample size' issues with his playing record. Go for it. Edit to note: If the limit were eight years, then obviously that would be arbitrary too and not really any better. Surely the idea is to measure every guy's longevity against his ability and make case-by-case decisions that way? Last edited by struggles_mightily; 06-01-2009 at 11:04 AM.

06-01-2009, 11:48 AM	#10 (permalink)
TribeFanInNC Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,498 Thanked 253x in 204 posts	The 10 year rule is only for being elected. The veterans committee can do whatever they want. Addie Joss is in the HoF and he only pitched 8.5 years. Sandy Koufax technically had 12 seasons, but that was only because he was a bonus baby and the Dodgers had to keep him on the roster. His first 2 years he had < 20 appearances each and he was marginal for the next couple seasons. Definitely yes. 4 MVPs is a no brainer even if he only played five years. __________________ PEBA - Duluth Warriors

06-01-2009, 12:27 AM	#3 (permalink)
damientheomen3 All Star Starter Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: with my army of orangutans Posts: 1,748 Thanked 258x in 162 posts	Not a hard decision, he was a monster and would've made the hall on his own if injuries hadn't gotten in the way

06-01-2009, 12:42 AM	#4 (permalink)
jbergey22 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,034 Thanked 126x in 95 posts	I have sympathy for a guy like this in that I was a huge Kirby Puckett fan and would have been pi$$ed if he hadnt gotten in. I vote yes

06-01-2009, 10:31 AM	#6 (permalink)
senorcoo Minors (Double A) Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 102	I agree with the sentiment that he WOULD have been a Hall of Fame lock. Unfortunately, taking into account the 10-year rule IRL, I would have to vote no. Remember, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Pete Rose, etc. SHOULD be in the Hall as well, but aren't. Different reasons, I know, but the Hall has rules.

06-01-2009, 11:22 AM	#8 (permalink)
Jose Cardenal's Afro Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Limbo Posts: 369 Thanked 14x in 10 posts	NO. I like the ten year rule. Putting someone in based on what they would have accomplished is not a good idea. If someone played 3 years had great numbers that when aggregated over 10 years would put him in the HOF, but had a CEI it takes away from what 10 year vets have done. There are plenty of people that had a couple meteoric years only to suck later. Maybe if you adopt a rule that someone played 7 or 8 years but was cut short due to an anjury you could make an injury exception or in the case of an extraordinary circumstance such as a plane crash. But he didn't put in the time. So no.

06-01-2009, 11:54 AM	#11 (permalink)
struggles_mightily Minors (Double A) Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 195 Thanked 10x in 6 posts	Good point, TribeFan: Koufax was a name I was going to bring up in defense of Berger. It doesn't sound like Berger was quite as dominant as Sandy, but Koufax is a no-brainer for the Hall, and so sets a good precedent as regards playing time. I'm not sure about guys like Joss, though. The Veteran's Committee is like the Universal Boxing Federation of baseball-honour giving (or something -- I hate analogies). At least in an OOTP context, MVP awards mean something. They usually do get given to the best offensive player every year. If you asked OOTP about the AL MVP last year, I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't have cared about Joe Mauer being on the non-playoff-getting-to (and small market) Twins. In the real world, MVP awards are a bit more dubious due to the nature of the dummies who award them.

06-01-2009, 03:16 PM	#13 (permalink)
damonrusst Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 275 Thanked 2x in 2 posts	Thanks for all the input. Great stuff. Keep it coming. FYI, I'm not proposing him for the HOF because he played for me for a long time. I got him for only two years of his eight and a half, lost two world series in 1934 and 1935 with him with the Red Sox, then we couldn't afford to resign him. This led to me getting fired after the next season. He won another series with the Senators in 1937 (he and DiMaggio a fearsome 3-4 combo), then I mortgaged my new team's future to bring him to St. Louis, only to have him fracture his skull making an acrobatic catch at the wall a few weeks later. All MVP awards were decided by the OOTP AI. Only one was won while he was playing for me. The only award I select manually is a reliever award. Keep the votes coming, his fate is in your hands.

06-01-2009, 03:19 PM	#14 (permalink)
damonrusst Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 275 Thanked 2x in 2 posts	He also won the series in 1933 with the Cincinnati Reds, killing my Cubs in hard fought season long NL battle, which again led to my firing. So this guy has been both boon and bane to me throughout this sim. Last edited by damonrusst; 06-01-2009 at 03:20 PM.

06-01-2009, 04:01 PM	#17 (permalink)
mtopham Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: around the corner from Mays Field Posts: 81 Thanked 8x in 7 posts	I had a similar situation with Rogers Hornsby, Great numbers, MVP's , World Series, cut down too early. I waved the rule. He played 7 years, career .340 hitter, suffered a CEI fractured skull. I went back two years later and reinstated him, but he played less than 1.5 years (hit .259, then I retired him after hitting .190 in 28 games year 2).

06-01-2009, 04:24 PM	#18 (permalink)
rogmax11 All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,255 Thanked 16x in 8 posts	No question in my mind: a resounding YES!

06-01-2009, 04:29 PM	#19 (permalink)
tysok Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,923 Thanked 6x in 4 posts	I wanted so badly to put this guy in my league's HOF... http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...r-retires.html But in the end I didn't. I wish I could have turned him into my manager, retired his number, and put him in my team's HOF... but none of that exists in OOTP so... At least your guy has the numbers to back up a selection to the hall. I'd vote Yes. __________________ I don't know about you, but as for me, the question has already been answered: Should we be here? Yes! Jack Buck, September 17, 2001 It's what you learn after you know it all that counts. I firmly believe that any man's finest hour... is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious. (Vince Lombardi) I don't measure a man's success by how high he climbs but how high he bounces when he hits bottom. (George S. Patton)

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