The Knuckleballer Thread

bababui · 06-06-2009, 01:19 PM

Its great to finally see them in OOTP. Just called up my first one and thought it might be cool if we posted how our knucklers were doing.

Also, should knucklers have a different fatigue AI from other pitchers? Maybe something that looks like a bell curve where they get penalized if they are too strong while their fatigue curve is less severe than other pitchers.

Any thoughts?

Nutlaw · 06-06-2009, 06:28 PM

Knuckleballers should, in general, have higher stamina than the average pitcher.

StyxNCa · 06-06-2009, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nutlaw

Knuckleballers should, in general, have higher stamina than the average pitcher.

Of course he has a 2nd pitch which seems weird.

JustinM · 06-06-2009, 09:55 PM

Why? Most do have a second pitch that's pretty terrible.

StyxNCa · 06-06-2009, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustinM

Why? Most do have a second pitch that's pretty terrible.

Forget I said anything.

Left-handed Badger · 06-06-2009, 10:15 PM

Most of the great knuckleballers had a whole repertoire past the knuckler. Apart from fastballs, Wakefield has a curve, Hough, had a slider, Candiotti had a curve and I believe a change-up. The Niekros had decent enough breaking pitches. (jOe in fact was more fastball-slider pitcher until he came to the Astros)

StyxNCa · 06-06-2009, 10:41 PM

Obviously the actual point I was making has been missed.

bababui · 06-07-2009, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nutlaw

Knuckleballers should, in general, have higher stamina than the average pitcher.

But shouldnt their effectiveness actually increase as they tire? Up to a point of course.

adamosity · 06-07-2009, 01:15 AM

I'm not seeing the knuckleballers in my historical sims.

There aren't that many in history--Neyer/James has a nice listing.

I played a 1978 game..Wilbur Wood, Phil Niekro, Joe Niekro, Charlie Hough, etc..no knuckleballs at all!

Gambo · 06-07-2009, 02:48 AM

In the master.csv there is nobody rated for knuckleballs or knuckle/curves though the columns are listed there. I noticed this too.

Hazza · 06-07-2009, 02:53 AM

I had a look at this in 2007 and the Lahman database treats Knucklers as extremely poor erratic fastball pitchers which is sad, but I think they throw out the model.

In short, I think it's Lahman, not OOTP.

andymac · 06-07-2009, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bababui

But shouldnt their effectiveness actually increase as they tire? Up to a point of course.

Is there some sort of study that shows this should be the case? I'll admit I'm not real knowledgeable on knucklers as there aren't many today and I don't see Wakefield much since I'm an NL guy. However, I've never really heard of this as being common knowledge or anything. Is the idea that once they tire, they don't "overthrow" the knuckleball making it more effect? I have heard that said many times about sinker-baller's, but I'm not sure it is actually true.

bababui · 06-07-2009, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andymac

Is there some sort of study that shows this should be the case? I'll admit I'm not real knowledgeable on knucklers as there aren't many today and I don't see Wakefield much since I'm an NL guy. However, I've never really heard of this as being common knowledge or anything. Is the idea that once they tire, they don't "overthrow" the knuckleball making it more effect? I have heard that said many times about sinker-baller's, but I'm not sure it is actually true.

Ive heard that knucklers dont want to be too fresh/strong because they occasionally throw it too hard and that puts more spin on the pitch.

Hazza · 06-07-2009, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bababui

Ive heard that knucklers dont want to be too fresh/strong because they occasionally throw it too hard and that puts more spin on the pitch.

I would argue that it's still a case of control.

A knuckler has the problem of trying to "over throw" and not getting spin, but he still is going to tire and loose control. So I believe it's still just a case of control.

Reading Jim Bouton's expierences in Ball Four, seems to be all about control. And Luck.

And Beaver shooting.

Did I get that right?

andymac · 06-07-2009, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bababui

Ive heard that knucklers dont want to be too fresh/strong because they occasionally throw it too hard and that puts more spin on the pitch.

Which is essentially the same thing I have heard about sinkerballers. If they throw them too hard the ball doesn't sink as much. I just don't think there is enough "proof" out there that it is actually the case that a knuckleballer or sinkerballer is more likely to throw a pitch "too hard" early in a game than they are later in a game.

struggles_mightily · 06-07-2009, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StyxNCa

Obviously the actual point I was making has been missed.

What was your point? That the second pitch he has (which is a splitter, quite a difficult thing to throw) should account for a large portion of the fact that his stamina is < 100?

StyxNCa · 06-07-2009, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by struggles_mightily

What was your point? That the second pitch he has (which is a splitter, quite a difficult thing to throw) should account for a large portion of the fact that his stamina is < 100?

Yeah. A pure knuckleball thrower should have a higher stamina, but if other pitches are thrown in the mix it should effect the stamina because the game doesn't call them a pure knuckler unless that is the only pitch in their arsenal.

Malleus Dei · 06-07-2009, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hazza

Reading Jim Bouton's expierences in Ball Four, seems to be all about control. And Luck.

And Beaver shooting.

Did I get that right?

Ba-dum-dum-dum. He'll be here all week, folks...

Malleus Dei · 06-07-2009, 11:31 AM

Can we get some discussion from beta testers who dealt with this issue?

struggles_mightily · 06-07-2009, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StyxNCa

Yeah. A pure knuckleball thrower should have a higher stamina, but if other pitches are thrown in the mix it should effect the stamina because the game doesn't call them a pure knuckler unless that is the only pitch in their arsenal.

Yeh, I agree. And I'm not sure that *anyone* should have 100 stamina, which suggests the ability to throw perpetually without any recognition of pitch count.

06-06-2009, 06:28 PM	#2 (permalink)
Nutlaw Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 9,529 Thanks: 79 Thanked 102x in 62 posts	Knuckleballers should, in general, have higher stamina than the average pitcher. __________________ BJHL: GM of the Manhattan Crime Occasional Contributor to The Cardinal Nation

06-06-2009, 10:15 PM	#6 (permalink)
Left-handed Badger All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: at the altar of the baseball god praying for middle infield that can catch the ball Posts: 1,970 Thanks: 0 Thanked 65x in 56 posts	Most of the great knuckleballers had a whole repertoire past the knuckler. Apart from fastballs, Wakefield has a curve, Hough, had a slider, Candiotti had a curve and I believe a change-up. The Niekros had decent enough breaking pitches. (jOe in fact was more fastball-slider pitcher until he came to the Astros) __________________ -Left-handed groundball specialist -Strikeouts are for wimps

06-07-2009, 02:48 AM	#10 (permalink)
Gambo All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,659 Thanks: 26 Thanked 426x in 221 posts	In the master.csv there is nobody rated for knuckleballs or knuckle/curves though the columns are listed there. I noticed this too. __________________ OOTP Mods: OOTPXI Historical Face Gen Project http://web.mac.com/sixwilsons/OOTPMo...Gen_Files.html Spritze/Gambo Database http://web.mac.com/sixwilsons/OOTPMo...Databases.html OOTP Stadium Chart and Ballpark Images http://web.mac.com/sixwilsons/OOTPMo...Ballparks.html MLB Compiled Uniform & Logo Pack http://web.mac.com/sixwilsons/OOTPMo...Gen_Files.html

06-07-2009, 02:53 AM	#11 (permalink)
Hazza Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 277 Blog Entries: 21 Thanks: 39 Thanked 15x in 12 posts	I had a look at this in 2007 and the Lahman database treats Knucklers as extremely poor erratic fastball pitchers which is sad, but I think they throw out the model. In short, I think it's Lahman, not OOTP. __________________ "The Mets is a good thing. They give everybody jobs. Just like the WPA" - Billy Loes "I never said half the things I really said." - Yogi Berra

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06-06-2009, 09:55 PM	#4 (permalink)
JustinM Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Cranberry Twp, PA Posts: 324 Thanks: 78 Thanked 15x in 12 posts	Why? Most do have a second pitch that's pretty terrible.

06-06-2009, 10:41 PM	#7 (permalink)
StyxNCa Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Victoria, Texas Posts: 3,000 Thanks: 228 Thanked 177x in 105 posts	Obviously the actual point I was making has been missed.

06-07-2009, 01:15 AM	#9 (permalink)
adamosity Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 66 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2x in 1 post	I'm not seeing the knuckleballers in my historical sims. There aren't that many in history--Neyer/James has a nice listing. I played a 1978 game..Wilbur Wood, Phil Niekro, Joe Niekro, Charlie Hough, etc..no knuckleballs at all!