Ready to be blasted

[Solonor]

Been running the same online league since 2003 using every version from OOTP5 onward with default settings, and it's never been a problem. That might change, now that we're on 10, but it's been fine for the last 6+ years.

Then again, hobbits are sturdier than humans...

[RchW]

Originally Posted by Childress

The Seattle Mariners placed third baseman Adrian Beltre on the 15-day disabled list with a severely bruised testicle..... Seattle manager Don Wakamatsu said the Gold Glove infielder could actually be out for the season if he needs surgery.

I mean, is all this detail really necessary?

Absolutely. I saw the replay and my estimation of No-cup Beltre went up a lot. He had the balls to pick up the ball and make the throw. If he had been a soccer player he'd be lying there screaming for a sponge.

Sorry for jacking the thread a bit.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by mickey7

In a 1950 historical franchise the Yankees currently have 12 players on the DL...

Consider yourself fortunate. The real New York Yankees in 1950 would have only been able to put a maximum of two players on the DL, and those players had to stay on the DL for thirty days. The other ten injured players would probably have to have been released.

(And not only was the DL limited to two players for thirty days, it could not be used after August 1st through to the end of the regular season. Dealing with injured players back then was a whole different matter than it is today.)

[tajoumaru]

Originally Posted by mickey7

I've owned every OOTP ever put out and this game has had the same unsolved problem in every edition. Problem is everytime someone comments about it they are pooh-poohed and laughed off, ignored or made fun of. But the injury portion of this game has always been broken and still is. I started a new historical sim this week in 1901, as it is the first season there are no minor leaguers. My Philadelphis A's began the season with 24 players on the roster. Injuries are set to VERY LOW, it is now August 17, 1901 and the A's have 15 players CURRENTLY on the disabled list. Only three pitchers and six batters are healthy, if that is not broken WHAT IS ????? Every time injuries are brought up we get the "we've adjusted them" but they have never been anywhere near right. Please check all the stats you want I'm pretty sure you will not find one time in ML history that a team had 15 players on the DL at the same time. I cringe to think how many might be there with injuries set to normal.

Were all 15 players injured at once, maybe in a train derailment?

[mickey7]

Le Grande Orange---you miss the entire point, it has nothing to do with the DL and it's rules it has to do with the inordinate amount of injuries this game produces----to follow your line what team had to release 12 or 15 players due to injury in a single season ??? The injury portion of this game remains broken.

[CBL-Commish]

Originally Posted by mickey7

Le Grande Orange---you miss the entire point, it has nothing to do with the DL and it's rules it has to do with the inordinate amount of injuries this game produces----to follow your line what team had to release 12 or 15 players due to injury in a single season ??? The injury portion of this game remains broken.

If it's broken it's probably in that it doesn't allow players to play at all with many types of injuries. The frequency is probably good, but, for example, it should probably allow a pitcher to pitch with a seriously torn rotator cuff. He'd be at ~50% effectiveness, start allowing multiples of his old ERA, and you'd have to release him. Position players could be allowed to play through similar injuries, where they'd have trouble even getting the ball across the diamond, and see his fielding percentage fall off the table. In the old days this was just thought of as a guy who'd lost it, or wasn't tough enough or some such thing.

That would be more realistic then the all-too-frequent "OUT" we see in OOTP today. How is the "OUT" determined? Could this be accomplished by editing the injury files?

[eMLBCommish]

Originally Posted by mickey7

Le Grande Orange---you miss the entire point, it has nothing to do with the DL and it's rules it has to do with the inordinate amount of injuries this game produces----to follow your line what team had to release 12 or 15 players due to injury in a single season ??? The injury portion of this game remains broken.

Somewhere on the boards, injury_log weeps.

[whizkid1950]

I am in the "OOTP Produces Way Too Many Injuries" camp, have been since OOTP7. Let me pose this to you: The bulk of my league's injuries always happen early in the year. Is it possible the game is coded based on the expectation that we'll rest guys more in Spring Training and early season games?

Like, do any of you limit your starting pitchers to 3 innings in spring training as real managers do, rest your catchers, and pull your veterans early? Do you hold down the pitch count when someone's starting a game against the Rockies and it's 49 degrees outside? I sim pretty slowly so don't have a lot of data to support my theory, but this past spring I set all teams' managerial tendencies to quick hook the starters and pinch-hit frequently until opening day, and now I'm late in the season and it's been the healthiest my league has ever been. Could be a coincidence, sure, but....if we use mid-season managerial strategies in ST maybe we're asking for the high rate of injury.

[Raidergoo]

Originally Posted by whizkid1950

Is it possible the game is coded based on the expectation that we'll rest guys more in Spring Training and early season games?

Yup, with Spring Training being especially brutal.

Additionally, you must take into account weather and temperature. I did the research for the US cities weather data, and I know that US cities are cold and wet during March, April, and May. Poor weather breeds injury.

[j66chevell]

I registered just to post on this subject (which means I feel slighted). I have simmed about 5 seasons so far (just bought ootpX 2 weeks ago) and I have always played with the rate at low. 2 of the seasons were normal 2009 MLB seasons and 3 are with the random start DB mod from this site.

In All 5 seasons I have seen Injury rates that are not accurate to MLB. In all my simmed seasons so far, I have had stretches where my teams have had 5+ starters out at once.

Originally Posted by Solonor

Cincinnati and the Mets currently have 10 players on the DL. Just glancing, it looks like most teams have around 6.

Baseball : MLB disabled list (with statistics)

That list includes Minor League players as well. So statistically speaking an average of 7 players per team, when a team has 100-150 players is not very much. This is also where I think people mess up when they look at the statistics.

The DL lists are not a true representation of the actual injuries a player or team has had this year.

All teams treat the DL as an extra roster management tool now-a-days. Many bench players get sent to the DL because they can't be optioned to minors or the team doesn't want to chance waivers, but they need an open spot for some reason. Teams will commonly do this when multiple mid-grade players are in slumps and they have hot Minors players. This also tends to happen if a team runs into a lot of early bullpen games or a string of 10+ inning games that depletes the pitching staff. For instance, this year, the Giants have placed Rich Aurillia on the DL for various foot problems when he hasn't been truly injured (unless you consider athlete's foot an injury), but they have an extra roster spot to plug other players in and out freely. This type of move also helps to bypass the 10 day rules on bringing players back to the MLB team. All teams do this, sometimes the injuries are more real, but many times they just use the excuse of a HBP to create an injury to make some roster moves. I would not be surprised if this "roster management" is the cause of 10% of all DL tranactions each year. You will also see a trend of sending guys to DL just to accomdate players in a trade made at the last minute of the deadline.

Many teams also have 1-2 guys that are "career DL". These tend to be guys that have a CEI soon after signing a major contract. Noah Lowry of the Giants is an example. He has been on the DL for 3 years now. 3 years of a 4 year contract. He has no place to go really, he has been re-habbing, but things just don't seem to work out. Rob Nen of the Giants also went this way, spending a couple years on the DL before finally retiring in his final year. I bet every team has 1-2 players in similar situations. Lowry only counts as an actual injury three years ago, but he is a percentage of the DL every year.

So, for all they guys that keep saying "look at the MLB stats", that doesn't work, because unlike other stats, the DL stats are often faked and contrived to a teams needs. The inury alogrithm can not be based on stats, it needs to be based on what "feels" right and it does not come close to feeling right on any setting.

I feel some of these changes would help:

1. A high percentage of all injuries should be the D2D (day to day) type. These should last less than a week, but allow a player to still do things such as pinch hit, spot start, or defensive sub. These should be designed so the player is much less effective, but also has little to no risk of additional injury.

2. Multiple injury rates on a team basis should be minimised. It should be built into the algorithm that the injury rates and chances get lowered from the parameters as a team suffers more losses. A "doward spiral theory" is rediculous. Just because something has a chance of happening, doesn't mean it will or should happen. If you are one that thinks these trends are "realistic", you should be the one to roll dice or modify game files to make it happen, not the vast majority of us who try to avoid it. The chance of additional injuries should be drastically lowered if a team has multiple starters injured, if a team has multiple long term, and various other parameters to prevent that "I have 9 guys injured at once", which seems extremly common for this game.

3. Change the frequency of the apply injury function. I dont know if the game runs this check every simulated pitch, or at bat, but it occurs way to often. It seems like each simmed day has a 10% (or more) chance of creating injuries on each team. This is absurd and may be a large cause of the "I have 9 guys injured at once" syndrom.

4. If there is a difficulty check that automatically gives high caliber teams extra injuries to bring them down, remove it. I am not sure if this happens, but it seems that it does. When a team is doing better than "statistically possible" it seems to me that the AI starts laying down the injuries on you to bring your team down to normal levels.

5. We should be given extra adjustments of the injury rates to tweak it closer to our individual likes. Instead of just 1 parameter, we should have at least two, one for injury chance and one for injury length. For more adjustment modifiers could be thrown in across the spectrum like it is for the hitting and pitching parameters.

Otherwise, I am enjoying this game so far.

[lynchjm24]

Originally Posted by Raidergoo

Yup, with Spring Training being especially brutal.

Additionally, you must take into account weather and temperature. I did the research for the US cities weather data, and I know that US cities are cold and wet during March, April, and May. Poor weather breeds injury.

Thank God you researched that, I never would have known that it's cold and wet in March and April....

[j66chevell]

Originally Posted by lynchjm24

Thank God you researched that, I never would have known that it's cold and wet in March and April....

Hmm, must be why ST games are played in Florida and Arizona

[CatKnight]

Well written j66, you've obviously put some thought into this. My own impressions:

I'm currently in the midst of my first couple of seasons/games with Injuries on normal (vs. low - I'm not brave enough for high.) My 'impression' is the injury rate is about right...a few starters forcing me to juggle with my roster, but nothing back breaking. I'm sure I'd find 15 players on the DL at once quite annoying though.

Further comments in bold:

Originally Posted by j66chevell

I feel some of these changes would help:

1. A high percentage of all injuries should be the D2D (day to day) type. These should last less than a week, but allow a player to still do things such as pinch hit, spot start, or defensive sub. These should be designed so the player is much less effective, but also has little to no risk of additional injury. It does seem like the amount of day-to-day injuries (vs. others) is low. I'm sure there are plenty of times a player isn't at their best due to a minor injury, yet stays on the active roster and tries to perform.


2. Multiple injury rates on a team basis should be minimised. It should be built into the algorithm that the injury rates and chances get lowered from the parameters as a team suffers more losses. A "doward spiral theory" is rediculous. Just because something has a chance of happening, doesn't mean it will or should happen... (etc.) This I have an issue with. If there is (for example) a 3% chance of one of your players being injured per game, then why should that number go down because you already have people hurt? It's a variable independent of number of current injuries.

3. Change the frequency of the apply injury function. I dont know if the game runs this check every simulated pitch, or at bat, but it occurs way to often. It seems like each simmed day has a 10% (or more) chance of creating injuries on each team. This is absurd and may be a large cause of the "I have 9 guys injured at once" syndrom. That would require extensive testing to see what a good frequency is. As I said, personally the current frequency doesn't bother me much - though perhaps the severity is a little skewed.

4. If there is a difficulty check that automatically gives high caliber teams extra injuries to bring them down, remove it. I am not sure if this happens, but it seems that it does. When a team is doing better than "statistically possible" it seems to me that the AI starts laying down the injuries on you to bring your team down to normal levels. IF there is such a check then I agree with you. I doubt there is, however. I've noticed from personal experience I feel much more put upon if I suffer a rash of injuries then if someone else does. The only way to prove this would be to look at ALL high performing teams and compare them.

5. We should be given extra adjustments of the injury rates to tweak it closer to our individual likes. Instead of just 1 parameter, we should have at least two, one for injury chance and one for injury length. For more adjustment modifiers could be thrown in across the spectrum like it is for the hitting and pitching parameters. I'd agree with the second adjustment (severity).

Otherwise, I am enjoying this game so far.

[Solonor]

Originally Posted by j66chevell

That list includes Minor League players as well. So statistically speaking an average of 7 players per team, when a team has 100-150 players is not very much. This is also where I think people mess up when they look at the statistics.

Sorry, but those are major leaguers. So is this: MLB Injuries - CBSSports.com

[eborix]

Originally Posted by Solonor

Sorry, but those are major leaguers. So is this: MLB Injuries - CBSSports.com

12 injuries on the Mets? Someone needs to tell MLB that they need to lower the injury rate, thats totally unrealistic

[spitfire]

Originally Posted by whizkid1950

The bulk of my league's injuries always happen early in the year.

Oddly enough, I've most often had exactly the opposite happen. Realistic or not, I don't want to be bothered with all the injuries I got experimenting with the normal or high settings, so in my fictional league I've taken to playing with injuries on low. Naturally I sometimes get guys hurt in the spring, often for extended periods. But my big run of injuries always seems to come late in the year. I've had seasons where I've had 7 or 8 regulars injured at the same time, all hurt in the last few weeks of the season. My usual setting is for the reserve guys to play when the starter is tired. I've also tried giving the reserves more playing time, setting them to play every 4th, 5th or 6th game, backup catcher more often. Same results; did nothing to stem the injuries. But I recall one year when I got so bugged at all the injuries despite my attempts to play the reserves a lot more and rest the regulars that I went back to letting the starters play as often as possible with the backups only playing when the starters are tired. Result that season? Almost no injuries the whole year.

I don't really have any idea if the injury model is broken. I do know it can be pretty danged frustrating. And it certainly seems random. Play the starters into the ground? No injuries. Rest the starters and play the backups more? A ton of injuries to the starters. I guess it's all part of the fun, though the logic escapes me at times. Just down to luck I guess. I'd like to see some players given a kind of "Ironman" rating, where they'll play through certain injuries more than normal players, similar to the idea of CBL-Commish above, or play with less-diminished capacity and injury-proneness when tired. Might enable the Ripken-type streaks or the old-time catchers who would play a ton of games, though a broken leg or what have you would take anybody out of the lineup.

[lynchjm24]

Originally Posted by eborix

12 injuries on the Mets? Someone needs to tell MLB that they need to lower the injury rate, thats totally unrealistic

And David Wright took a fastball to the head yesterday. Might be 13.

[Carlton_Willey]

The biggest issue with the injury rate and OOTP historice sims is that OOTP injuries are on added to the real injury rate that occurred during the season.

Think about it, the actual stats reflect who played and who didn't. OOTP can only add to injury totals. While players who missed a lot of time can play more, a full season guy will never have a suitable replacement available because that player did exist in the season you are simming.

A famous example is the 1961 Yankees. They have no bench players other than two slugging Cs in Berra and Blanchard. The reason they have no bench players is the big stars played the whole season. That's why they are an all-time great team.

Had Mantle or Maris gone down early in 1961, Tom Tresh and Joe Pepitone would have come into the big league equation much earlier -- either playing in NY or as trade bait to bring in a replacement. The Lahman data base cannot make these players available sooner even though they were organizational assets at that time.

I don't turn on injuries in historic sims until I've piled up some people on the rosters. Players who came up a few years earlier and went back down were really still available to teams. They simply were passed over for younger players given a first chance.

You really need to start an historic sim 8-10 years before the season you really want to play if you want injuries on. (Starting in 1901 you can't do that, so I would think 'injuries off' at the start is a no brainer decision) That's to get a full organization capable of sustaining excess injuries over and above reality.

If all you want is a one year replay to see if Maris and Mantle can belt 61, you are much better off playing Strat-O-Matic baseball, a game designed to replay one season.

[j66chevell]

Originally Posted by Solonor

Sorry, but those are major leaguers. So is this: MLB Injuries - CBSSports.com

Those are players from the 40 man roster aparently then. Only 25 are at MLB level, the rest are in the minors. So not quite the 100+ I thought, but there are still many minor league guys on the list.

[mickey7]

And here we go again, season 2 or 1902 it is June 25 and the Philadelphia A's have 12 guys on the DL (last year about this time it was 15) including FIVE starting pitchers and my three best hitters, this game is rapidly becoming quite unenjoyable. Injuries are set to very low and in checking individual injury ratings 7 of these guys have very low injury rankings. Broken !