Is it just me or is relief pitching totally jacked up?

KurtBevacqua · 08-16-2009, 08:31 PM

I really want to love this game. I mean, it's so close to being the perfect baseball sim. I'm playing with Tampa Bay, playing all my games, I'm in my third season. I've gone out and got guys like Carpenter, Marmol, Kuo, I still have Joe Nelson (in fact the only reliable one of the bunch) and every year I lead the league in starters ERA and am dead last in bullpen ERA. It's like clockwork, Kazmir goes 7 and has a three run lead. Kuo will come in againt three lefties, two of them get on base, I go to Carpenter against the next righties, he allows the two to score. I bring in Marmol to close the 9th, walk, double, walk off double. Three straight seasons of this. Doesn't matter what allegedly quality relievers I go out and sign or trade for in the offseason, doesn't matter what rookies develop, Joe Nelson is the only reliable guy. Jose Veras had a 7.95 ERA for me. Hong Chih Kuo was a 7.93. Marmol had a 5.61 ERA with 10 blown saves in one full season. Grant Balfour had just a .769 save % when he was my closer. The poor relief pitching is now so consistent it's silly and to the point of making me think about giving it up. Every other facet of the game is spot on, but this one thing is just so out of whack I'm starting to lose interest. Am I just terribly unlucky for three straight seasons or is anyone else having the same thing?

PhillieFever · 08-16-2009, 09:12 PM

When I say the title of the post,I thought you meant that the relief pitching was too strong in the game,not too weak.In my historical league right now,using the 1975 Phillies,my starter's have an ERA of 3.35,which is third in the league,while my bullpen has a 2.69 ERA which is again 3rd in the league.League wide,the average bullpen ERA is 3.48,while the overall starter's ERA is 3.56.These numbers are as of July 20th,with each team having played roughly 93-95 games.In my league at least,I'm not seeing the problem.Maybe its just a slump,they do happen.For example,Steve Carlton,who's supposedly my best pitcher,was 2-8 with a 4.50 ERA and a 93/55 strikeout/walk ratio after his first 16 starts,Since then,he's started 8 games,gone 5-1 with a 1.59 ERA and a 71/31 strikeout to walk ratio.My advice is to just give it time,hopefully things work out for you.

Afino · 08-16-2009, 09:39 PM

Yeah, like PF above, I actually see the opposite.

RP are more prone to those wild swings due to their small IP size.

(completely OT, but PF, I'm currently in the great city of Philadelphia for the first time in my life, visiting with family. Other than it being ungodly hot today, it has been a nice weekend! I'm here all week too.)

Kelric · 08-17-2009, 12:14 AM

I've seen ridiculously dominant pens and ones that fall apart at a single sneeze on my clubs. It swings both ways.

ike121212 · 08-17-2009, 12:32 AM

One of the most common complaints is that relief pitching is too strong. Since you're talking about actual players, I'll skip the creation/development speech. Managing your bullpen well is the biggest advantage you can get over the AI. It's such an advantage, that it feels like cheating sometimes. My advice, ignore saves completely and forget everything you know about modern bullpen management. RP's in this game fatigue greatly from back to back outings, but with decent endurance, can handle 2 innings a game easily. Use this to your advantage and get as many quality innings as you can out of your top RP's.

RP's always have a small sample size. BABIP is a good indicator of their luck, if it's well above league average, then they are unlucky.

Left-handed Badger · 08-17-2009, 12:52 AM

I remember one pitcher I have back a few OOTPs ago. Great pitcher, but for some reason I could never put him in with men on base. He couldnt pitch until the inherited runners scored. He did fine with his own runners. But, if I put him in with men on first and third. RBI-single, RBI-single....."ok now I can bear down." (it was especially frustrating because he had such a high-GB rate, and would have been perfect in the role of coming in to get a DP.

) He had a sub-3.00 ERA, but I think my starters really didnt like him. (especially the 5th starter, who I took out twice early in the season with bases loaded 2 outs, and put this reliever in, only to watch 3-run rallies both times). Not counting sim games, I think I only gave him 2 inherited runners after mid-May.

Killing Time · 08-17-2009, 08:53 AM

Sweet, OOTP pitchers with personalities of their own.

KurtBevacqua · 08-17-2009, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ike121212

One of the most common complaints is that relief pitching is too strong. Since you're talking about actual players, I'll skip the creation/development speech. Managing your bullpen well is the biggest advantage you can get over the AI. It's such an advantage, that it feels like cheating sometimes. My advice, ignore saves completely and forget everything you know about modern bullpen management. RP's in this game fatigue greatly from back to back outings, but with decent endurance, can handle 2 innings a game easily. Use this to your advantage and get as many quality innings as you can out of your top RP's.

RP's always have a small sample size. BABIP is a good indicator of their luck, if it's well above league average, then they are unlucky.

Saves aren't the issue. I'm a best guy at the best time kind of guy. Other than Joe Nelson, my guys suck. They are great with other teams, I bring them in and they suck. They suck for me, I trade them, and they are great with other teams. It seems like playing the games out yourself creates some disadvantage in the bullpen. I'm seeing my relievers with a BABIP of like .380 to .400. It doesn't matter how I use them, what scenario, what their ratings are, they regularly get lit up and have been for three seasons. I understand the nature of relief pitching and there are times that these things just go against you, but for three straight years? Every other facet of this game is fabulous. Markus seems to have nailed it. But man, this relief pitching thing is nuts.

Kelric · 08-17-2009, 07:50 PM

With a BABIP in that high, I'd be looking awfully close at that defense of yours.

ike121212 · 08-17-2009, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KurtBevacqua

Saves aren't the issue. I'm a best guy at the best time kind of guy. Other than Joe Nelson, my guys suck. They are great with other teams, I bring them in and they suck. They suck for me, I trade them, and they are great with other teams. It seems like playing the games out yourself creates some disadvantage in the bullpen. I'm seeing my relievers with a BABIP of like .380 to .400. It doesn't matter how I use them, what scenario, what their ratings are, they regularly get lit up and have been for three seasons. I understand the nature of relief pitching and there are times that these things just go against you, but for three straight years? Every other facet of this game is fabulous. Markus seems to have nailed it. But man, this relief pitching thing is nuts.

If you're managing bullpen fatigue well, then I don't know what else to say. I've seen relievers have bad years, but my pen usually ranks near the top of league. My top RP usually throws 120 innings with 15-20 wins. I've never had or seen an all out bullpen meltdown. The bullpen fatigue model is near the top of my list of things that need to be changed. It's far too easy to gain an advantage from.

Left-handed Badger · 08-18-2009, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kelric

With a BABIP in that high, I'd be looking awfully close at that defense of yours.

Right, I always have good looking numbers when I play out. Mainly because I got for the best IF I can regardless of their hitting ability (except 1B). Though I usually get 2 good hitters of the other 3 (2B/3B usually). I am perfectly willing to eat the 9 spot in the batting order for a good field no hit IFer.

Questdog · 08-18-2009, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Left-handed Badger

Right, I always have good looking numbers when I play out. Mainly because I got for the best IF I can regardless of their hitting ability (except 1B). Though I usually get 2 good hitters of the other 3 (2B/3B usually). I am perfectly willing to eat the 9 spot in the batting order for a good field no hit IFer.

Eating the 9 spot?

This means you have a DH and any comments from you in future will be noted in this unfortunate light.....

Afino · 08-18-2009, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Left-handed Badger

Right, I always have good looking numbers when I play out. Mainly because I got for the best IF I can regardless of their hitting ability (except 1B). Though I usually get 2 good hitters of the other 3 (2B/3B usually). I am perfectly willing to eat the 9 spot in the batting order for a good field no hit IFer.

You bet your sweet bippy that's what I like to do too.

Here's the guy I've been running out there on my online league team since I don't know when. 5 years running of negative VORP and really don't care.

Player Report for #43 Jarek Goszkowicz

damientheomen3 · 08-18-2009, 06:35 PM

greatest polish player in baseball history!

Afino · 08-18-2009, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by damientheomen3

greatest polish player in baseball history!

Nah, that's this guy. "Chocolate" is one of this year's prized free agents.

The GUBA is a big place. More Polish ballplayers than you think.

damientheomen3 · 08-19-2009, 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Afino

Nah, that's this guy. "Chocolate" is one of this year's prized free agents.

The GUBA is a big place. More Polish ballplayers than you think.

its hilarious because his name read the polish way sounds nothing like chocolate, it sounds like 'hohalek'

conception · 08-19-2009, 01:07 PM

I've found bullpen guys to be the most inconsistent lot in the game. Part of the problem is that with their relatively small usage, one or two bad outings really seem to hurt them and sometimes they just end up having bad years despite being very good. I combat this by keeping as many good relievers around as possible. I'm always gonna have a couple guys in the back end who stay constant, but many of my front end guys shift around during the year until I find the guys who are up to the job.

Kanonen80 · 12-04-2009, 02:02 PM

I know this is several month's late, but I'm wondering if you still have this problem.

Do you use the setting that makes you warm up your relievers first? If this setting is ON, and you're just putting relievers directly into the game (with no warm up at the roster screen) they will be cold and most likely get lit up.

Malleus Dei · 12-04-2009, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kelric

I've seen ridiculously dominant pens and ones that fall apart at a single sneeze on my clubs. It swings both ways.

Me too. I've had epic ones, and some that you cringed whenever you had to put one of them in the game. And it seems to be kind of cyclic.

Afino · 12-04-2009, 07:06 PM

Isn't that like real baseball though?

I mean, the small sample sizes (normally) of relievers result in wild swings like that.

08-16-2009, 08:31 PM	#1 (permalink)
KurtBevacqua Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 2,826 Blog Entries: 2 Thanks: 3 Thanked 10x in 8 posts	Is it just me or is relief pitching totally jacked up? I really want to love this game. I mean, it's so close to being the perfect baseball sim. I'm playing with Tampa Bay, playing all my games, I'm in my third season. I've gone out and got guys like Carpenter, Marmol, Kuo, I still have Joe Nelson (in fact the only reliable one of the bunch) and every year I lead the league in starters ERA and am dead last in bullpen ERA. It's like clockwork, Kazmir goes 7 and has a three run lead. Kuo will come in againt three lefties, two of them get on base, I go to Carpenter against the next righties, he allows the two to score. I bring in Marmol to close the 9th, walk, double, walk off double. Three straight seasons of this. Doesn't matter what allegedly quality relievers I go out and sign or trade for in the offseason, doesn't matter what rookies develop, Joe Nelson is the only reliable guy. Jose Veras had a 7.95 ERA for me. Hong Chih Kuo was a 7.93. Marmol had a 5.61 ERA with 10 blown saves in one full season. Grant Balfour had just a .769 save % when he was my closer. The poor relief pitching is now so consistent it's silly and to the point of making me think about giving it up. Every other facet of the game is spot on, but this one thing is just so out of whack I'm starting to lose interest. Am I just terribly unlucky for three straight seasons or is anyone else having the same thing? __________________ "The type and formula of most schemes of philanthropy or humanitarianism is this: A and B put their heads together to decide what C shall be made to do for D. The radical vice of all these schemes, from a sociological point of view, is that C is not allowed a voice in the matter, and his position, character, and interests, as well as the ultimate effects on society through C's interests, are entirely overlooked. I call C the Forgotten Man" - William Graham Sumner

08-17-2009, 12:14 AM	#4 (permalink)
Kelric Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Greater Boston Area Posts: 3,983 Thanks: 7 Thanked 46x in 36 posts	I've seen ridiculously dominant pens and ones that fall apart at a single sneeze on my clubs. It swings both ways. __________________ Former Co-Commish and owner of the Boston Red Sox, 1783-1144, .609%, of the defunct Overlords Baseball League (1930-48). 17 Division wins, 9 ALCS wins, 5 World Series wins.

08-17-2009, 12:52 AM	#6 (permalink)
Left-handed Badger All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: at the altar of the baseball god praying for middle infield that can catch the ball Posts: 1,970 Thanks: 0 Thanked 65x in 56 posts	I remember one pitcher I have back a few OOTPs ago. Great pitcher, but for some reason I could never put him in with men on base. He couldnt pitch until the inherited runners scored. He did fine with his own runners. But, if I put him in with men on first and third. RBI-single, RBI-single....."ok now I can bear down." (it was especially frustrating because he had such a high-GB rate, and would have been perfect in the role of coming in to get a DP. ) He had a sub-3.00 ERA, but I think my starters really didnt like him. (especially the 5th starter, who I took out twice early in the season with bases loaded 2 outs, and put this reliever in, only to watch 3-run rallies both times). Not counting sim games, I think I only gave him 2 inherited runners after mid-May. __________________ -Left-handed groundball specialist -Strikeouts are for wimps

08-17-2009, 07:50 PM	#9 (permalink)
Kelric Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Greater Boston Area Posts: 3,983 Thanks: 7 Thanked 46x in 36 posts	With a BABIP in that high, I'd be looking awfully close at that defense of yours. __________________ Former Co-Commish and owner of the Boston Red Sox, 1783-1144, .609%, of the defunct Overlords Baseball League (1930-48). 17 Division wins, 9 ALCS wins, 5 World Series wins.

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08-16-2009, 09:12 PM	#2 (permalink)
PhillieFever Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Philly Posts: 5,884 Thanks: 367 Thanked 303x in 259 posts	When I say the title of the post,I thought you meant that the relief pitching was too strong in the game,not too weak.In my historical league right now,using the 1975 Phillies,my starter's have an ERA of 3.35,which is third in the league,while my bullpen has a 2.69 ERA which is again 3rd in the league.League wide,the average bullpen ERA is 3.48,while the overall starter's ERA is 3.56.These numbers are as of July 20th,with each team having played roughly 93-95 games.In my league at least,I'm not seeing the problem.Maybe its just a slump,they do happen.For example,Steve Carlton,who's supposedly my best pitcher,was 2-8 with a 4.50 ERA and a 93/55 strikeout/walk ratio after his first 16 starts,Since then,he's started 8 games,gone 5-1 with a 1.59 ERA and a 71/31 strikeout to walk ratio.My advice is to just give it time,hopefully things work out for you.

08-17-2009, 12:32 AM	#5 (permalink)
ike121212 All Star Reserve Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 788 Thanks: 35 Thanked 109x in 79 posts	One of the most common complaints is that relief pitching is too strong. Since you're talking about actual players, I'll skip the creation/development speech. Managing your bullpen well is the biggest advantage you can get over the AI. It's such an advantage, that it feels like cheating sometimes. My advice, ignore saves completely and forget everything you know about modern bullpen management. RP's in this game fatigue greatly from back to back outings, but with decent endurance, can handle 2 innings a game easily. Use this to your advantage and get as many quality innings as you can out of your top RP's. RP's always have a small sample size. BABIP is a good indicator of their luck, if it's well above league average, then they are unlucky.

08-19-2009, 01:07 PM	#17 (permalink)
conception All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 868 Thanks: 28 Thanked 84x in 50 posts	I've found bullpen guys to be the most inconsistent lot in the game. Part of the problem is that with their relatively small usage, one or two bad outings really seem to hurt them and sometimes they just end up having bad years despite being very good. I combat this by keeping as many good relievers around as possible. I'm always gonna have a couple guys in the back end who stay constant, but many of my front end guys shift around during the year until I find the guys who are up to the job.

12-04-2009, 02:02 PM	#18 (permalink)
Kanonen80 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 55 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4x in 2 posts	I know this is several month's late, but I'm wondering if you still have this problem. Do you use the setting that makes you warm up your relievers first? If this setting is ON, and you're just putting relievers directly into the game (with no warm up at the roster screen) they will be cold and most likely get lit up.