I'm not into soccer but baseball...

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by DreamTeams

However, I wish OOTP had the news system that FM has. The interaction is fantastic. Plus, the news just reads more realistically than in OOTP. It's more polished than OOTP in that way. But, it should be with its resources and years of development. Now, that's what I thought the relationship with the FM developers would have brought to OOTP. I still believe a better, more realistic and immersive news system would add so much to OOTP. Right now the news system gets real boring, real quick. It's just not developed enough to hold your attention. You'd really need to play FM to understand what I mean about the news system.

Yeah, news would be the first thing I'd bring over from FM. It was also my hope when Markus joined SI that it would get done. It would be great if OOTP generated half the sales of FM and could put a team of programmers on each module of the game.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

from a business standpoint, I think it needs to be more like a FM or FOF

I just feel OOTP is better suited as a fictional/modern day career sim. If you want to replay history, there are probably better options. That's why I have always felt OOTP should concentrate on what it's best at.

It's interesting to see the sub sets of customers. One of the constant criticisms of the SI merger (and post merger) versions of OOTP is it's level of complexity and extended learning curve. I personally think it is bogus criticism, the game is really very easy to learn. In this thread we have the FM sub set that wants additional complexity and graphics and I can see the point (though I'm not sure I want all the non-actual game stuff that seems to be in FM).

Markus does have to make a decision, though it will alienate significant parts of his customer base, no matter which way he goes. If OOTP Developments had more resources they should have split the game into Replay and Fictional versions some time ago. I'd even say, sell the rights to the replay version (maybe retain royalties) and let that entity go after the over priced Diamond Mind market. Wait, maybe there's more money in replay... ....

A lengthy way of saying I agree with your point.

[Harry Chiti]

I'm watching this thread with real interest; I've played both games since Season Ticket Baseball and Championship manager 97-98!(which became the FM franchise)

I've also played a lot of Eastside Hockey Manager.

I've greatly enjoyed all three games - and for me, the game engines in each are superb - sure they can always be better, but like a lot of you I grew up on EWB and Hockey League Simulator (and prior to that Strat-o-matic) and the game engines of today beat them all handily.

My biggest complaint has always been - I wish EHM and FM were more like OOTP - you just can't beat the customability of OOTP...

It's what makes OOTP so great...(it is so hard to doctor the databases for the other two games (far easier now in FM10)..you can recreate past seasons but its a lot of work and you're handcuffed by things that are hardwired into the game and you then have to come up with endless workarounds to make things 'work'.)

And Markus seems to be on top of all the latest statistical analysis and seems to be incorporating them into the game engine...really these are great times for ootp...especially now we will be getting 'mass-select'

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by RchW

It's interesting to see the sub sets of customers. One of the constant criticisms of the SI merger (and post merger) versions of OOTP is it's level of complexity and extended learning curve. I personally think it is bogus criticism, the game is really very easy to learn. In this thread we have the FM sub set that wants additional complexity and graphics and I can see the point (though I'm not sure I want all the non-actual game stuff that seems to be in FM).

Markus does have to make a decision, though it will alienate significant parts of his customer base, no matter which way he goes. If OOTP Developments had more resources they should have split the game into Replay and Fictional versions some time ago. I'd even say, sell the rights to the replay version (maybe retain royalties) and let that entity go after the over priced Diamond Mind market. Wait, maybe there's more money in replay... ....

A lengthy way of saying I agree with your point.

Why does he have to make a decision? What's stopping him from continuing the way he has for this long? I see no reason to change the way he's doing things. The game's not perfect for everyone now, and it won't ever be perfect no matter what, so keep on trucking I say. I like it very much the way it is. I see no major problems and the tweaks he does every year just make it better.

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

Yes, I did too. Not just 3d, but I really thought OOTP was going to start taking amazing steps forward...instead, it feels more like the game is moving back to what it was prior to the merger.

I completely disagree! If you compare OOTP 6 (before the SI move) to OOTP 2007 (which is basically the result of the merger) you see how vastly superior the new version was. I'm not even talking about OOTP 10/11, which are on a whole different level in terms of AI/text/customization/online and fun.

Without the merger OOTP would never be what it is today, it is that simple. I learned so much about programming and advanced technology, and it clearly shows in OOTP 2007 and later. OOTP 2006 was a bit of problem, but a necessary evil for future development.

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by BruceM

Why does he have to make a decision? What's stopping him from continuing the way he has for this long? I see no reason to change the way he's doing things. The game's not perfect for everyone now, and it won't ever be perfect no matter what, so keep on trucking I say. I like it very much the way it is. I see no major problems and the tweaks he does every year just make it better.

+1. Couldn't have said it better...

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by Sweed

It would be great if OOTP generated half the sales of FM and could put a team of programmers on each module of the game.

*lol* ... If OOTP would generate half the sales of FM (which are over 1 million copies per year), then I would drive a Porsche and a Ferrari, have several flats in sunny countires and would employ 10 programmers and 5 graphic designer who'd do my job

[Cooleyvol]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

Yes, I did too. Not just 3d, but I really thought OOTP was going to start taking amazing steps forward...instead, it feels more like the game is moving back to what it was prior to the merger.

You can't seriously say that with a straight face. Its not even close which makes your statement ludicrous.

[thbroman]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

*lol* ... If OOTP would generate half the sales of FM (which are over 1 million copies per year), then I would drive a Porsche and a Ferrari, have several flats in sunny countires and would employ 10 programmers and 5 graphic designer who'd do my job

Amen, bro . . . .
The major difference between FM and OOTP is that FM details a game that is much, MUCH more popular worldwide.
The other difference of significance is that FM is, and always has been, a game that attempted to simulate the action of a soccer game. OOTP began life as a text and strat sim. It is a matter of no small significance that baseball actually has very little action in it, for the amount of time you spend watching, while soccer is nothing BUT action and motion. That makes modeling the two games very different.

FM 2010 is a terrific game. It does everything well -- on-field action, financials, contracts, and transfers, even player mentality and personality. I have taken my Bath team all the way from from the lowest depths of league play -- the Blue Square North League -- all the way to the Championship League (that's just one step below the Premiership, for you non-soccer fans). But now I'm stuck, because my board won't build a new stadium, and without more ticket revenues I can't sign the stars I would need to get into the Premiership. I have to try to hang in there until perhaps they change their mind. I hear it does happen.

[vyshka]

Originally Posted by Antonin

If you spend a bit of time on the SI forum you will find that despite FM's sophistication, there are many problems with the game. I have been a member there since 2001 [before I joined this forum, in fact], and I own FM05, WSM06, WSM07 and WSM08. I play mostly FM05, and sometimes WSM08.

Over the years, as a growing number of people on SI's forum are saying, FM has just gotten bigger and bigger and more bloated, with more "features" that are peripheral to the actual managing of one's football team, to the point where more and more long-time players are saying "the fun just isn't there anymore."

With each new version, there are a barrage of complaints that basic parts of the game don't work anywhere near the way soccer does in RL, or that they just don't work at all. Attacking midfielders that don't behave like attacking midfielders, goalkeepers that become supermen whenever *your* players are taking shots, defenders that don't defend, etc etc. Common RL footy tactics that won't work in FM, forcing you to create bizarre tactics of your own to fool the game AI. Etc. Basic football tactics do not change radically from year to year in real life, but with each new version of FM, you have to spend hours completely reinventing your tactical arsenal.

FM is fun in small to medium-sized doses, but there is no historical play, and there is no "can't get fired" mode. These things are big turnoffs for me. I was close to buying the latest version, because it has a feature I have been lobbying for for years: an in-game editor so that you can create your own leagues. But all the complaints about the game have kept me away.

I'm in the "it's your game, play it your way" camp, and I like OOTP the way it has been developing. I don't agree that OOTP needs to try to be more like FM. I like text-based management sims to be text-based management sims. 3D graphics don't impress me; they just make the game run more slowly. 3D graphics, IMHO, don't add anything to the gameplay of a text-based sports management sim. They're just eye candy. They certainly don't contribute to what I, personally, want in a sports sim: the chance to manage my favorite team. I want to manage my team, make trades, manage my players on game day, and study statistics. I like to watch team dynasties rise and fall. I like to track player careers.

OOTP baseball is a very good game and should follow its own development path.

Now, if somebody would develop a soccer sim with even the degree of sophistication of OOTP5, with the same amount of customizability, and a "can't get fired" mode, I would be in heaven.

Just my 2 cents.

I don't know that graphics would help with OOTP, but the 2D engine for FM was a wonderful addition as it gave you a way to see problems that you needed to correct or points you could exploit in your opponent that wasn't possible with just the text. I am still more partial to the 2D than the 3D at this point, but that is probably because FM Live is still using 2D.

Edit: I also agree with whoever posted above that the new Tactics wizard is a much welcome addition.

[vyshka]

Originally Posted by robc

I tried the FM demo and didn't know how the heck to even get going. Some forum people gave me some pointers, but I was still lost. Does anyone know some simple online, 'getting started playing Football Manager' resources to make it wasier to get into?

If so, please post the links. I tried the strategy guide (Tactical Theorems), but I need something more basic just just understand the gameplay.

Thanks

I think there is another guide included with the latest Tactical Theorems that covers some basics.

There also is a nice books that talks about the history of tactics called Inverting the Pyramid.

[vyshka]

Originally Posted by Eugene Church

I really thought Markus would learn a lot from the FM programmers and have more help in developing OOTPB. I expected him to glean FM technology and know-how and adapt it to OOTPB.

But for whatever reason, it didn't work out.

I think that the influence of SI and their technology ever since the merger has been obvious in OOTP.

[checkyoursixx]

I've recently been playing Football Manager 2010 and it's great. I don't care at all for soccer, and still dont. But this game is fun and the 3D gameplay is great!.

I have played a lot of simulators in the past. From NHL Eastside Hockey Manager, FHL Sim, OOTP (of course) and Football Manager. I like them all equally. There are some things that other sims do better then others. It's hard to get one that takes the best of everything and puts it all into one. I've never played Football Manager 2010 online in a league, but the one thing OOTP has over all the other sims is the great online play. I wish the NHL Eastside hockey sim had that before SI decided to abandon it but the one and only sim that keeps me playing is OOTP, because of the great online play.

Keep up the good work, whether or not this game ever ends up being 3D isn't a big deal to me, I'll play it regardless.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by vyshka

I think that the influence of SI and their technology ever since the merger has been obvious in OOTP.

I agree. Post SI has been a major improvement to the series with OOTP 2006 being, as Markus so nicely put it "a necessary evil for future development". Playing both games the influence is certainly there.

I would also say that SI has also learned a bit from Markus and his design. FM 2010 went to menus across the top of the screen, ala OOTP, nixing the old side menu. A huge improvement IMHO to any sports game where a user wants\needs to see many columns of stats or attributes at one time without either running out of screen real estate or having an annoying side scroll.

FM also this year added the ability to select what stats\attributes you want to view in game, no more having to edit xml files (well at least to a certain degree). OOTP has been doing this for what, 4? versions now.

IMHO the short lived merger was a good thing for both SI and Markus.

[PSUColonel]

all I am saying is, that it is unfortunate that learning has stopped. Will OOTP be able to continue evolving the was FM has?

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

all I am saying is, that it is unfortunate that learning has stopped. Will OOTP be able to continue evolving the was FM has?

I would think it goes without saying it will be much slower by not being under the SI umbrella, no? I mean if OOTP is still with SI it could "use\borrow" the code from FM to jump start a better news feature. Markus could do the majority of the work with one of the "news guys" from FM taking a look-see to help where needed. That of course has all gone away.

Doesn't take away the fact that OOTP is still what it is, a great simulation in it's own right that actually surpasses FM in some ways. The biggest one that comes to mind for me personally is the ability to import my on-going dynasty from one version to the next. Some would say customization. One that many never mention is being able to play with league totals and modifiers.

Go to SI forums and someone complains scoring is to high, to low, tackles to high, to low etc. With OOTP you can go in and adjust your own game to get the output you want. Can't do that with FM, you play it "as is".

I will agree with you tough it is unfortunate that the split had to happen.

[Antonin]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

FM 10 is the greatest sports sim ever made. Hands down. I'm not sure why people get so worked up over a lack of historical play??? Even without the graphics, this is still the case.

That's a matter of opinion, of course.

Maybe for some of the people who "get worked up over a lack of historical play," [and I'm not sure anybody is actually getting worked up over something like that] that lack of historical play is the very reason they don't consider it to be the greatest sports sim ever.

We must also take into account the fact that soccer and baseball are two very, very different sports. Long-time fans of OOTP or FM have their own reasons for liking what they like. The interests of those two groups of fans may not overlap.

In my case, they do. I actually like FM [earlier versions, anyway], but in small to medium sized doses. FM and OOTP each satisfies a different gaming need in me.

I'm not sure why some people who like Game A a lot want it to change and be more like Game B, which they also like a lot. Maybe, instead of wishing Game A should change, they should just spend more time with Game B.

[Antonin]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

all I am saying is, that it is unfortunate that learning has stopped. Will OOTP be able to continue evolving the was FM has?

Sorry, but I'm not sure why you think "learning has stopped."

OOTP will continue to evolve in its own way, the way its developer wants it to. And FM should continue to evolve in its own way.

[Eugene Church]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene Church View Post
I really thought Markus would learn a lot from the FM programmers and have more help in developing OOTPB. I expected him to glean FM technology and know-how and adapt it to OOTPB... But for whatever reason, it didn't work out.

Posted by vyshka:

I think that the influence of SI and their technology ever since the merger has been obvious in OOTP.


Posted by Eugene Church
vyshka, you are right...
In light of your comment and several in another thread... including one from Markus... I have to rethink my position and revise my opinion. Markus did glean a lot of knowledge from the SI programmers. That's why OOTP10 is far, far, far superior to OOTP6.5, which I really liked except for the poor news variety... which has been greatly improved beginning with OOTP2006... for example OOTP6.5 had 5 shutout news stories... OOTP10 has about 150 shutout stories.

[RBLwebguy]

OOTP X is clearly the best version since the merger and split, and while it mirrors 6.5 a bit in the look and feel (which personally I love!), it is a far superior game, with a lot of bells and whistles. It can only get better. Cheers Markus!