If you had to sell me OOTP X

[coljesep]

As I've stated I'm a 6.5 kinda guy. I like stability and I'm not really of the new Madden generation I like to call it where everytime a new version of a game comes out I ditch my old version and pick up the new and start over.

I'm curious though. I know there are a ton of smart OOTP people on here. So if you had to sell me on OOTP X versus 6.5 in terms of features, what features would you sell me on?

[spleen1015]

One of the big things I like about OOTP these days is facegen. This adds a ton of immersion to the game for me. If you look at my dynasty, I use player pics a lot. I think it helps there as well.

One of the things I have always liked about OOTP is the customizability. OOTPX can be customized beyond belief.

[coljesep]

That does look pretty cool (I checked out your posts for your sim) but I'm in a league that started in 1980, uses real players from that era so facegen doesn't matter as much I guess.

I guess what I'm more looking for is if you had a public league with 20+ owners from 6.5... what would make you want to switch to 10? The league is more about franchise management so while facegen looks nice, it has little to almost nothing to do with how your franchise operates in a competitive league.

Facegen to me is a cooler feature if I am playing the game on my own against AI.

[Athletics17]

I understand the madden psyche you were referring to. I love madden 2004, I played it for years. But when i switched to 2008 it blew me away with how updated it was. I started playing with ootp 9, so I really don't have much comparison with 6.5. What I like from the switch from 9 to ver X is the teams home page. It has all the players, team leaders, tells how the minor league teams are. The most important info for me was in one page.

I wrote in another thread about how some of the stories and scouting reports were updated from the initial release to the recent patch. It is small feature, but when you read the same thing over and over again it is nice to have some new material.

[SMFXR01]

Originally Posted by coljesep

That does look pretty cool (I checked out your posts for your sim) but I'm in a league that started in 1980, uses real players from that era so facegen doesn't matter as much I guess.

I guess what I'm more looking for is if you had a public league with 20+ owners from 6.5... what would make you want to switch to 10? The league is more about franchise management so while facegen looks nice, it has little to almost nothing to do with how your franchise operates in a competitive league.

Facegen to me is a cooler feature if I am playing the game on my own against AI.

If 6.5 meets your and the other team's GMs needs...
If you are able to fill all the teams with GMs.....
Why change.....

[coljesep]

Well I agree with you there. Ownership is the only thing I really foresee being a challenge. It's kind of like, why play Madden 2001 when Madden 2008 is out there. I was just wondering what OOTP X has that if you were faced with 2 competitive leagues you'd choose X over 6.5. Is it simply because X is newer?

[endgame]

Originally Posted by coljesep

Well I agree with you there. Ownership is the only thing I really foresee being a challenge. It's kind of like, why play Madden 2001 when Madden 2008 is out there. I was just wondering what OOTP X has that if you were faced with 2 competitive leagues you'd choose X over 6.5. Is it simply because X is newer?

Depends on your value system. It does more things and does more things correctly.

[coljesep]

Ok that's also fair. But, like what?

I know it handles compensation picks which is nice but we allow the trading of ammy picks so that feature wouldn't matter

I like what I read re: arbitration. Seems like the owner gets more negotiating with arby and they can decline arby etc

[fhomess]

Some reasons to switch to OOTPX:
1. Inability to find replacement owners
2. Far more ability to handle things via team exports rather than having commish intervention
3. Far more customizable financial model
4. Better development model
5. Better in-game AI
6. Better commish tools for running your league
7. Far more detailed stats tracking in-game
x. FaceGen - you've said you won't use it, but for others reading this thread, it adds a lot to fictional leagues.

Some reasons to stay in OOTP6.5:
1. Possible loss of GM's who do not wish to learn the new game or spend the money for it.
2. Simplicity, familiarity - there's a great deal more complexity in the new version
3. Smaller league file/HTML export size
4. Ratings changes in conversion - most players retain their relative level of quality, but you will have some headscratchers.

I think if you were starting a new league, there'd be very little argument in favor of using 6.5 over X even if 6.5 and X were released at the same time. There's a vast amount of improvement in the game engine over the course of the past 4 versions. The real reasons to stick with 6.5 are because of the fact that they really are quite different. If your GM's have no familiarity with the new version, there's going to be a bit of a learning curve, a bit of frustration with changes in perception of players (which will all get chalked up to the version change), and the fact that people will have to spend money on it.

Based on the number of different threads you've started on this topic, it really sounds like your league is struggling with something. Perhaps it's owner replacement, maybe something else. Ultimately, it's a bit scary to take a long running league that you know and love and run it through the conversion process, but at some point, you have to let the league go. If it's going to die with 6.5, then it's worth trying to convert to X. The worst that could happen is that it dies after conversion. The best is that it carries on, albeit with a different flavor to it.

Now if you don't think your league is there, yet, but you're trying to fend off that state, I'd suggest you try to figure out what percentage of your league is willing to go through the wringer of the conversion process. You will almost certainly lose some GM's, but if you have a handful of committed ones and the league is healthy, you should be able to replace them. You'll lose GM's gradually in 6.5 anyway, and while there's a much smaller pool of 6.5 leagues still active, there's also a smaller pool of GM's still interested in playing 6.5. My personal opinion is that waiting to convert until you have to is a bad idea. You get to that point because of league problems, and league problems reduce enthusiasm for keeping the league going. If you convert earlier, while more GM's are still enthusiastic about the league, you'll probably have more effort put in by those GM's in getting to know the new version and the process will be more successful. The real thing you need to determine as the commish, is if there is enough enthusiasm for that.

I think of this like trading an aging superstar. You can stick with him even though there are better players available, hoping for continued performance, but at some point he's no longer going to cut it. It's usually better to trade him a year too early than a year too late. The talent you get for him might never amount to what you expect it to, but you know that the vet isn't going to last forever.

[coljesep]

Awesome post.

The # of posts is honestly because there have been some who want to go to OOTP 8 because it's free. We're fine in terms of owner participation etc. Getting new owners when we have to is a small struggle, but we haven't had a season with vacancies yet.

My theory is OOTP 8 is free for a reason and if owners want to switch engines from 6.5 why go to 8 when we could just go to 9 or 10 you know?

See my scare would be (and I'm just an owner in the league, our commish doesn't own a team) my scare would be convert to X then XII comes out in 2 yrs... then what was the point? I can appreciate new engines for what they are but if let's say the best part about X over 6.5 is a better financials system, then maybe we can come up with something smart enough to do manually in 6.5.

I mean heck, I have run an FPS 98 league since 2002... at least OOTP 6.5 is a recognizeable name

Our league (the ootp 6.5) is an interesting one because if I guessed that 10% of our owners joined BECAUSE of OOTP I'd be either over estimating or right on target. We have a lot of clusters of friends that come aboard which makes the league very fun and competitive but also new owners take time to learn 6.5

BTW great analogy with the aging superstar haha.

Maybe I'm just pointing out an eventual problem with the OOTP engine as a whole. I mean you have to think OOTP 11 is coming out one day, so then what? I've used the reference before but it's very Madden-esque. Madden was a dynasty league that over time turned into kind of a 1 and done mentality because why get invested in Madden 05 past 1 or 2 seasons when if you take is serious and don't rush it, Madden 06 will be out.

At what point does OOTP become "THE" simulation engine, rather than the engine to use until next year.

So I guess if 26 owners enjoy 10+ seasons of 6.5 and we switch to X for example and they have a hard time with it, what's a reason we'd use not to switch to say OOTP XII?

Of course I get the OOTP makers need to make $ but the engine is going to become too much of a yearly cycle, especially if leagues do not convert.

[spleen1015]

The big difference between OOTP and Madden is OOTP gives you the ability to convert your leagues/dynasty with each new version. Madden does not to my knowledge.

With each new version comes new features, options and tuning. It only makes sense to me that you want to convert versions as they come. It will only improve the experience. I don't have a problem spending $30 annually, though.

[TribeFanInNC]

My two cents on the OOTP 8 is free for a reason:

OOTP 8 is free for promotional purposes basically to serve as a demo to what the more current versions are like. It's not because it stinks; in fact, it would not be in their interest to make a free sucky game available to the public. You'll notice 6.5 is not free, eventhough it is older, because it isn't representative of the current game. If you get people hooked on the free game, maybe they will buy the new game.

[coljesep]

Spleen: Valid, but if every time you convert your league to the newest version and it doesn't translate... what's the point in having any history to your league? I mean, even if your league was OOTP 9 and you convert to 10... your pitchers now have ratings to each pitch which could drastically change their talent. I agree that its better to have ratings for each pitch, but if the file doesn't convert properly then it's no different than a new madden version because every year you're starting over in some ways right?

[spleen1015]

While the conversion won't be perfect, the conversion was tested. So, it's not like it is going to be a major issue, IMO. You might have to start over so to speak, but the changes aren't drastic enough for me to consider it starting over.

Now, in your case, it just might be. If every version to version conversion has say 6 small issues, then when you convert through several versions like you'd have to, then you would experience them all at once and it would seem like a major issue.

If I were you or your commish, I would talk to folks in leagues that have converted through each version. There are leagues still out there that have converted all the way from OOTP 3 or 4. The Baseball Maelstrom is one that comes to mind as does the USBA.

It would be bad business-wise if OOTP couldn't convert version to version. That means the conversion needs to be solid.

[fhomess]

I think the issue of version control is a valid one. As you've seen, you really didn't need to jump from 6.5 for many years, and it's debatable even now if you need to. If you upgrade to OOTP8, X, or whatever, the same will be true of that version. You don't need to upgrade every year if you don't want to.

I do believe that there's a different mentality regarding upgrading version to version once you take the step to OOTP8 or X, though. 6.5 is a natural stopping point because that was the end of that generation of OOTP. The GUI was completely rewritten, and most of the underlying code as well. The new versions really just contain enhancements and improvements to the existing base of the version before them. Some of those are larger than others, but that's generally true. There's two ways to approach that information: 1. Upgrades only provide minor benefit so there's no need to upgrade, 2. Upgrades have only minimal impact on the league, so you might as well upgrade. Obviously, those contain contrasting actions based on the same information and it depends on your league's point of view. My impression of the online leagues forums for OOTP9 and OOTPX is that the second option is the more commonly taken one. Given how much play people get out of OOTP, some people approach an annual purchase of OOTP as a very low cost form of entertainment.

My suggestion would be that if you think your league is interested in an upgrade, upgrade to the latest version that you feel comfortable with. After years of playing 6.5, it's not unreasonable for GM's to purchase a new game if needed. Once you've done that, you can then move forward with conversations about whether or not to stay on the version you chose or upgrade to the new one when it comes out. I would think that if you upgrade from 6.5, you'd want to try to get at least a couple of seasons worth of play under the new version before considering moving to the version after that. Bear in mind that just because a new version is released, it doesn't mean you'll upgrade to it immediately. Many online leagues will wait for solo leaguers to find bugs in the game and for Markus to fix those before upgrading. So even if OOTPXI is released on April 1, you may not actually want to use it until June or July 1. A lot of solo leaguers are "every other" guys. They buy every other version, and that's certainly a reasonable approach for an online league, too. I don't really see the point of undertaking the upgrade from 6.5 and then not going all the way to OOTPX. I realize OOTP8 is free, but I don't believe you'll address any GM retention/recruiting issues that might crop up by moving to that version. You'll also feel more comfortable staying on that version when OOTPXI comes out if you're only one version behind, so I think you'd be better off going to X if you do switch.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

With each new version comes new features, options and tuning. It only makes sense to me that you want to convert versions as they come. It will only improve the experience. I don't have a problem spending $30 annually, though.

I'm solidly with Spleen on this.

[Bluenoser]

I wouldn't sell you on anything or any features.

I would suggest you download the Demo and find out for yourself what features you like and dislike.

Nobody can tell you if you'll like the game or not, that decision is yours and yours alone. Downloading the Demo is the simplest and best way for you to make an informed decision.

[Malleus Dei]

Oh, and fhomess? Great posts, you're really on a roll.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by BruceM

I wouldn't sell you on anything or any features.

I would suggest you download the Demo and find out for yourself what features you like and dislike.

Nobody can tell you if you'll like the game or not, that decision is yours and yours alone. Downloading the Demo is the simplest and best way for you to make an informed decision.

I disagree. Getting review data from experts is the best way to make an informed decisions, as you may lack the experience and expertise to do a proper evaluation.

As an OOTP expert myself, I say unto you that X is the best version to date. It still lacks some features that 6.5 had, but it's a good, solid, fun
game.

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

I disagree. Getting review data from experts is the best way to make an informed decisions, as you may lack the experience and expertise to do a proper evaluation.

As an OOTP expert myself, I say unto you that X is the best version to date. It still lacks some features that 6.5 had, but it's a good, solid, fun
game.

Getting review data from experts is very helpful, but imho, getting your hands on "The Product" and testing it yourself is better.

Again, just my opinion, but nobody, and I mean nobody, can tell you if you'll like something or not. They can tell you they like it, they can tell you all about the great features and great things it does, but that doesn't mean you'll like it.

Much like movie critics, you have to take the opinion with a grain of salt. I've seen/read plenty of reviews that were both good and bad, yet when I saw the movie I was in total disagreement with the critic (so called expert).