Suggested role and relative value

jmknpk2 · 02-06-2010, 07:22 AM

I was trying to determine a method to rank pitchers relative to each other, including starters versus bullpen. I am finding this much more difficult than in prior versions because of the new (much improved - Thank you!) pitching model.

In the past, I could look at the pitchers rating and Endurance and determine a relative value, ignoring the role that he was set at. Because a high endurance reliever could be used as a starter and a low endurance starter might better be suited as a reliever.

Now, I don't have a handle on quickly and easily determining the appropriate role for a pitcher when dealing with a bunch of pitchers. For players on my own team, I can look at the suggested role, and study their pitches, and figure out the best role and experiment if necessary to see how they do. So I can determine the best role with time. I usually make my personal prioritized draft order from the game reports. And I don't think I can print suggested role in the reports. And I don't have enough time to study and determine the best role of every pitcher in the draft pool or free agent market. And it's too tedious to look at each player rating page to find the suggested role for each pitcher.

But what I'm interested in is a quick and easy way that can be applied to a draft pool or list of pitchers on the free agent market. In the prior versions, there were sometimes relievers with 9 or 10 endurance, whom I could pick up and convert to starters. One question I have is whether free agent pitchers set their role to the "suggested role" even if the team they were leaving had set a different "set position". In real life, a starting pitcher who had been used in the bullpen, would certainly market himself as a starter on the free agency market if he was capable. Not sure if that happens in the game. So, I guess what I'm curious about is whether or not I can take the pitcher's indicated role in the draft pool and free agency lists as the appropriate role. If I could get the "suggested role" in a report, I would use that. But from what I can tell I can only get a pitchers set role which may differ from the appropriate "suggested" role.

In the past, in the beginning of a draft I would choose starters and ignore bullpen pitchers, then there was a point where it shifted so that a good reliever was better than a mediocre starter and the pick strategy changed. The relative value of a starter versus bullpen equaled out at that point. I guess I'm trying to find a good method of finding that spot amongst other things.

Even when I study a pitcher's detail I cannot confidently determine his "suggested role". I had hoped that I could just look at the number of quality pitches and decide that a pitcher with three quality pitches could be a starter, otherwise belongs in the bullpen. But I have seen some relievers with six decent pitches having suggested role of reliever. And I have seen some starters with two pitches having a suggested role of starter. So it is not obviously a cut and dried matter.

It seems from my observations that the type of pitch definitely comes in to play. A changeup may not be as important a pitch as a curveball for example. This makes sense as a knuckleball pitcher can be a starter primarily on that pitch, etc.

Anyway, I hoped to get some discussion going so I could maybe learn something.

Flying Dutchmen · 02-06-2010, 11:56 AM

Here are many thoughts on this topic:

1- Suggested role is based on a player's current ratings, not their potential, so this will throw off the projections of most, if not all, amateur starting pitchers. Without feeders, you will sometimes see draftable pitchers who are already labeled MLB-starter ready. With feeders, this is very rarely (possibly never) the case. The way I go about looking at potential role is to look at the pitch potentials and endurance. When the endurance is marginal, the suggested role is a good clue - if it's bullpen for the rookie league, he's never going to be a starter.

2- I know for a fact that pitchers don't set their position to a certain role when they are free agents. I believe they keep the position they had when they were released or become free agents. A way to check this is to look at a player's demands (which you can customize the lists to show) and you'll see a number of middle relievers with extremely high demands (on the order of millions in a modern league) but mediocre statistics. These are starters making starter demands but with a MR position, which is as close as you can come to how they "market" themselves. I always try to change a player's position to their best role when I release them - it helps me when I need to pick up a short-term minor league pitcher.

I'm sure others will have their own insights, but this is what I've found in my experience with OOTP X.

02-06-2010, 07:22 AM	#1 (permalink)
jmknpk2 All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 706 Thanks: 67 Thanked 103x in 61 posts	Suggested role and relative value I was trying to determine a method to rank pitchers relative to each other, including starters versus bullpen. I am finding this much more difficult than in prior versions because of the new (much improved - Thank you!) pitching model. In the past, I could look at the pitchers rating and Endurance and determine a relative value, ignoring the role that he was set at. Because a high endurance reliever could be used as a starter and a low endurance starter might better be suited as a reliever. Now, I don't have a handle on quickly and easily determining the appropriate role for a pitcher when dealing with a bunch of pitchers. For players on my own team, I can look at the suggested role, and study their pitches, and figure out the best role and experiment if necessary to see how they do. So I can determine the best role with time. I usually make my personal prioritized draft order from the game reports. And I don't think I can print suggested role in the reports. And I don't have enough time to study and determine the best role of every pitcher in the draft pool or free agent market. And it's too tedious to look at each player rating page to find the suggested role for each pitcher. But what I'm interested in is a quick and easy way that can be applied to a draft pool or list of pitchers on the free agent market. In the prior versions, there were sometimes relievers with 9 or 10 endurance, whom I could pick up and convert to starters. One question I have is whether free agent pitchers set their role to the "suggested role" even if the team they were leaving had set a different "set position". In real life, a starting pitcher who had been used in the bullpen, would certainly market himself as a starter on the free agency market if he was capable. Not sure if that happens in the game. So, I guess what I'm curious about is whether or not I can take the pitcher's indicated role in the draft pool and free agency lists as the appropriate role. If I could get the "suggested role" in a report, I would use that. But from what I can tell I can only get a pitchers set role which may differ from the appropriate "suggested" role. In the past, in the beginning of a draft I would choose starters and ignore bullpen pitchers, then there was a point where it shifted so that a good reliever was better than a mediocre starter and the pick strategy changed. The relative value of a starter versus bullpen equaled out at that point. I guess I'm trying to find a good method of finding that spot amongst other things. Even when I study a pitcher's detail I cannot confidently determine his "suggested role". I had hoped that I could just look at the number of quality pitches and decide that a pitcher with three quality pitches could be a starter, otherwise belongs in the bullpen. But I have seen some relievers with six decent pitches having suggested role of reliever. And I have seen some starters with two pitches having a suggested role of starter. So it is not obviously a cut and dried matter. It seems from my observations that the type of pitch definitely comes in to play. A changeup may not be as important a pitch as a curveball for example. This makes sense as a knuckleball pitcher can be a starter primarily on that pitch, etc. Anyway, I hoped to get some discussion going so I could maybe learn something. Last edited by jmknpk2; 02-06-2010 at 07:56 AM.

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02-06-2010, 11:56 AM	#2 (permalink)
Flying Dutchmen Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 213 Thanks: 0 Thanked 23x in 23 posts	Here are many thoughts on this topic: 1- Suggested role is based on a player's current ratings, not their potential, so this will throw off the projections of most, if not all, amateur starting pitchers. Without feeders, you will sometimes see draftable pitchers who are already labeled MLB-starter ready. With feeders, this is very rarely (possibly never) the case. The way I go about looking at potential role is to look at the pitch potentials and endurance. When the endurance is marginal, the suggested role is a good clue - if it's bullpen for the rookie league, he's never going to be a starter. 2- I know for a fact that pitchers don't set their position to a certain role when they are free agents. I believe they keep the position they had when they were released or become free agents. A way to check this is to look at a player's demands (which you can customize the lists to show) and you'll see a number of middle relievers with extremely high demands (on the order of millions in a modern league) but mediocre statistics. These are starters making starter demands but with a MR position, which is as close as you can come to how they "market" themselves. I always try to change a player's position to their best role when I release them - it helps me when I need to pick up a short-term minor league pitcher. I'm sure others will have their own insights, but this is what I've found in my experience with OOTP X.