HOF or not?

milkman41 · 02-19-2010, 12:01 PM

I've been reviewing the 32-year history of my fictional league recently, and I came across a couple players who I feel are on the borderline of HOF worthiness, so I was wondering what you all though about these guys. A few of them had abbreviated careers because I started the league in 2008 with no history, so for those I kind of have to extrapolate a career.

Up first, P Manuel Lopez:
This southpaw got a bit of a late start, getting a taste of the big leagues at age 23, and started out in the bullpen the next season before getting a shot to start, and enjoying one of the finest seasons the league has seen. In 190.1 innings, Lopez had a .160 opponent's average, 250 strikeouts (11.82 K/9), and a 2.08 ERA. Though he wouldn't match some of these numbers again, Lopez blossomed into the league's best strikeout pitcher, compiling 9 straight seasons of 245+ strikeouts, including 309, still the league record, in 2019, and 305 the next season. He finished his career with a 149-78 record, a 4.06 ERA, a 1.22 WHIP, 844 walks and 2895 strikeouts in 2265.2 innings pitched, good for a 11.5 career K/9 and a 3.43 career K/BB. His 2895 strikeouts are good for 8th all-time (as of now, but he was closer to the top when he retired). Lopez was a 4-time all-star, and won 4 World Series with the San Diego Pride. He also holds single-season records for lowest opponents average (.160 in 2014), K/9 (13.09 in 2016), hits allowed/9 (4.96 in 2014), and the aforementioned strikeout record.

SS Dani Sanchez
Sanchez was a defensive wizard, finishing with 9 Gold Gloves during his 16-year career. He was never much of an offensive force, but was fairly consistent with the bat. His career line, in 8155 total plate appearances, is .247/.320/.400, with 1794 career hits and 200 career HRs. Sanchez is the only player with 5 straight Gold Gloves, and is arguably the league's best fielder ever.

P William Martin
Martin was really hurt by the fact that the league started without history, as he was already 32 when the league started. He was a starting pitcher for the first 3 years, and then transitioned to reliever, where he flourished, as he aged. As a starter, he had a combined 77 walks in 591 innings (to go with 447 strikeouts), and WHIPs of 1.11, 1.13, and 1.19. As a reliever, he was dominant, including one stretch as a shutdown closer, in which his ERAs were 2.34, 1.75, and 1.75, he saved 43, 32, and 44 games, and his WHIPs were .98, 1.07, and .78. He finished his abbreviated, but still 9-year career with a 3.52 ERA, a 1.09 WHIP, and a K/BB ratio of 5.29 in 986.2 innings pitched. Had he been pitching before 32, it is highly probable that his numbers would have been even more outstanding.

2B Rod Henderson
Henderson was also hurt by the league starting with no history, as he was already 28 at the start of the league. In the league's inaugural season, 2008, he put up arguably the finest season ever, finishing with 57 HRs, 171 RBIs (a single-season record until 2024), 23 SBs to go with 2 CSs, and a whopping .366/.434/.758 line (the .758 slugging is a league record, as are the 135.8 VORP and 471 total bases he compiled that season). Henderson finished his 10-year career with 235 HRs, 761 RBIs, a 304.9 VORP, and a career line of .271/.354/.511. He was a 2-time all-star, won the MVP once, and compiled 2 Gold Gloves.

I would like to know which of these players, if any, you feel belong in the HOF. I appreciate your input and I hope you've enjoyed reading a bit about some of the players in my league.

jar2574 · 02-19-2010, 12:19 PM

Yes to Martin and Henderson. No to the other two. 4.06 ERA is too high. The other guy didn't swing the bat well enough. That's my two cents.

Qwerty75 · 02-19-2010, 12:20 PM

I would say no on Sanchez and Martin. Defensive performance is currently hard to assess accurately in OotP, so it would be a tough call to put Sanchez in on those laurels. Martin is hurt by spending most of his time as a reliever.

With Lopez and Henderson, I think it depends how they compare to players already in your Hall of Fame. They both suffer from abbreviated careers, but had strong peaks. To me, Lopez has the stronger case of the two because of the sustained excellence of his strikeout totals. His ERA and low win total make me wonder about his flaws, though.

Edit: I would lean no on Henderson. It seems his candidacy is largely built on the single great year. If that's the case, it wouldn't be enough for me. Then again, if he compares well in career value against other 2Bmen, that improves his candidacy.

OldFatGuy · 02-19-2010, 12:39 PM

My opinion is no on all of them with the exception of Lopez. (Sorry, you asked. lol).

Lopez would be a real close call for me (if I really had a vote) but I think in the end I would probably vote yes for him, as the strikeouts, aided a bit by the 4 all-stars and 4 world-series, probably do make him a Hall of Famer. But my opinion is in the minority as I still for the life of me can't believe Bert Blylevin isn't in the real Hall of Fame because of his strikeouts. So perhaps I overvalue strikeouts.

I saw Blylevin pitch, and it is still one of the most impressive curveballs I've ever seen. I'd bet if I had the chance to "see" this guy pitch, he would've been impressive too. IMO wins are overrated because they are a team thing, and you can argue ERA is as well since great defenses lower ERA and bad ones inflate it, but strikeouts, now that's the pitcher.

I think I'd vote no on all but Lopez and vote yes for Lopez.

damientheomen3 · 02-19-2010, 05:04 PM

I'd say maybe, maybe, no, and yes

24Rocks · 02-19-2010, 07:36 PM

I think Henderson and Lopez look good for the Hall

milkman41 · 02-23-2010, 02:17 PM

Thanks for the input guys.

For me, Lopez is right on the cusp of induction. Compared to other HOFs, his 2895 Ks would be good for 4th place among full-time starters, and his K/9 would be the highest by about 1 K/9. In fact, only 3 HOFers have a K/9 high than 9, so his 11.5 K/9 makes him a pretty good candidate, in my view.

For Henderson, only 2 other players would have less HRs than him, but they also had abbreviated careers due to the league starting without history in 2008.

02-19-2010, 12:01 PM	#1 (permalink)
milkman41 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 81 Thanks: 2 Thanked 1x in 1 post	HOF or not? I've been reviewing the 32-year history of my fictional league recently, and I came across a couple players who I feel are on the borderline of HOF worthiness, so I was wondering what you all though about these guys. A few of them had abbreviated careers because I started the league in 2008 with no history, so for those I kind of have to extrapolate a career. Up first, P Manuel Lopez: This southpaw got a bit of a late start, getting a taste of the big leagues at age 23, and started out in the bullpen the next season before getting a shot to start, and enjoying one of the finest seasons the league has seen. In 190.1 innings, Lopez had a .160 opponent's average, 250 strikeouts (11.82 K/9), and a 2.08 ERA. Though he wouldn't match some of these numbers again, Lopez blossomed into the league's best strikeout pitcher, compiling 9 straight seasons of 245+ strikeouts, including 309, still the league record, in 2019, and 305 the next season. He finished his career with a 149-78 record, a 4.06 ERA, a 1.22 WHIP, 844 walks and 2895 strikeouts in 2265.2 innings pitched, good for a 11.5 career K/9 and a 3.43 career K/BB. His 2895 strikeouts are good for 8th all-time (as of now, but he was closer to the top when he retired). Lopez was a 4-time all-star, and won 4 World Series with the San Diego Pride. He also holds single-season records for lowest opponents average (.160 in 2014), K/9 (13.09 in 2016), hits allowed/9 (4.96 in 2014), and the aforementioned strikeout record. SS Dani Sanchez Sanchez was a defensive wizard, finishing with 9 Gold Gloves during his 16-year career. He was never much of an offensive force, but was fairly consistent with the bat. His career line, in 8155 total plate appearances, is .247/.320/.400, with 1794 career hits and 200 career HRs. Sanchez is the only player with 5 straight Gold Gloves, and is arguably the league's best fielder ever. P William Martin Martin was really hurt by the fact that the league started without history, as he was already 32 when the league started. He was a starting pitcher for the first 3 years, and then transitioned to reliever, where he flourished, as he aged. As a starter, he had a combined 77 walks in 591 innings (to go with 447 strikeouts), and WHIPs of 1.11, 1.13, and 1.19. As a reliever, he was dominant, including one stretch as a shutdown closer, in which his ERAs were 2.34, 1.75, and 1.75, he saved 43, 32, and 44 games, and his WHIPs were .98, 1.07, and .78. He finished his abbreviated, but still 9-year career with a 3.52 ERA, a 1.09 WHIP, and a K/BB ratio of 5.29 in 986.2 innings pitched. Had he been pitching before 32, it is highly probable that his numbers would have been even more outstanding. 2B Rod Henderson Henderson was also hurt by the league starting with no history, as he was already 28 at the start of the league. In the league's inaugural season, 2008, he put up arguably the finest season ever, finishing with 57 HRs, 171 RBIs (a single-season record until 2024), 23 SBs to go with 2 CSs, and a whopping .366/.434/.758 line (the .758 slugging is a league record, as are the 135.8 VORP and 471 total bases he compiled that season). Henderson finished his 10-year career with 235 HRs, 761 RBIs, a 304.9 VORP, and a career line of .271/.354/.511. He was a 2-time all-star, won the MVP once, and compiled 2 Gold Gloves. I would like to know which of these players, if any, you feel belong in the HOF. I appreciate your input and I hope you've enjoyed reading a bit about some of the players in my league.

02-19-2010, 12:20 PM	#3 (permalink)
Qwerty75 All Star Reserve Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 808 Thanks: 30 Thanked 68x in 55 posts	I would say no on Sanchez and Martin. Defensive performance is currently hard to assess accurately in OotP, so it would be a tough call to put Sanchez in on those laurels. Martin is hurt by spending most of his time as a reliever. With Lopez and Henderson, I think it depends how they compare to players already in your Hall of Fame. They both suffer from abbreviated careers, but had strong peaks. To me, Lopez has the stronger case of the two because of the sustained excellence of his strikeout totals. His ERA and low win total make me wonder about his flaws, though. Edit: I would lean no on Henderson. It seems his candidacy is largely built on the single great year. If that's the case, it wouldn't be enough for me. Then again, if he compares well in career value against other 2Bmen, that improves his candidacy. __________________ Last edited by Qwerty75; 02-19-2010 at 12:26 PM.

02-19-2010, 12:39 PM	#4 (permalink)
OldFatGuy All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Northern Va., Loudoun County Posts: 1,391 Thanks: 22 Thanked 80x in 52 posts	My opinion is no on all of them with the exception of Lopez. (Sorry, you asked. lol). Lopez would be a real close call for me (if I really had a vote) but I think in the end I would probably vote yes for him, as the strikeouts, aided a bit by the 4 all-stars and 4 world-series, probably do make him a Hall of Famer. But my opinion is in the minority as I still for the life of me can't believe Bert Blylevin isn't in the real Hall of Fame because of his strikeouts. So perhaps I overvalue strikeouts. I saw Blylevin pitch, and it is still one of the most impressive curveballs I've ever seen. I'd bet if I had the chance to "see" this guy pitch, he would've been impressive too. IMO wins are overrated because they are a team thing, and you can argue ERA is as well since great defenses lower ERA and bad ones inflate it, but strikeouts, now that's the pitcher. I think I'd vote no on all but Lopez and vote yes for Lopez. __________________ How can you wheel that lumber tomorrow if you don't pound that Budweiser tonight? - Frank Howard

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02-19-2010, 12:19 PM	#2 (permalink)
jar2574 Major Leagues Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 391 Thanks: 62 Thanked 24x in 18 posts	Yes to Martin and Henderson. No to the other two. 4.06 ERA is too high. The other guy didn't swing the bat well enough. That's my two cents.

02-23-2010, 02:17 PM	#7 (permalink)
milkman41 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 81 Thanks: 2 Thanked 1x in 1 post	Thanks for the input guys. For me, Lopez is right on the cusp of induction. Compared to other HOFs, his 2895 Ks would be good for 4th place among full-time starters, and his K/9 would be the highest by about 1 K/9. In fact, only 3 HOFers have a K/9 high than 9, so his 11.5 K/9 makes him a pretty good candidate, in my view. For Henderson, only 2 other players would have less HRs than him, but they also had abbreviated careers due to the league starting without history in 2008.