Database question

silentrob · 07-08-2008, 12:45 PM

Sorry if I am being dense here, but there are some things I do not understand about the player ratings imported into ootp9. I understand how the ratings are neutralized for park factors. What I don't understand is how they are normalized (if they are) to account for different eras. For example, pitchers of the late 1960s will be superior to those whose careers were just before or just after them. Hitters of the 1920s and 1930s have terrific contact ratings, etc.

Example: I import the 1930 season, only 1 pitcher has stuff greater than 5, while half the league has movement 8 or better (1-10 scale). 70% of hitters have power 3 or less.

Shouldn't players who were average in one era have the same ratings as players who were average in another era? If someone could explain how the game accounts for this as historical leagues progress, I'd be very thankful.

Spritze · 07-08-2008, 05:25 PM

All ratings irregardless of historical year are neutralized to a constant 750 runs/162 games environment.

So a team and its players that scored 1500 runs / 162 games would get a 50% neuter and a team and its players that scored 100 runs per 162 games would get a 750% increase. Every team scores 750 runs. Player adjustments are made based on that.

Ratings compare any one player to any other in that 750 run environment. If you see a bunch of movements = 8 it just means all those players had similar normalized stats in the categories that make up movement.

Incidently these normalized stats mean you can combine the admirable Sandy Koufax on the same team as disreputable Mr. Bonds and they should both play to their abilities as the era factor has been removed. One can play with mixed eras and get realistic results.

Leagues still can have eras however. The strategy modifiers in game setup handle those.

silentrob · 07-08-2008, 06:32 PM

Thanks for the response, I believe I understand what you are describing. As I am upgrading from ootp6, many things in this version are new for me.

I just wanted to avoid a random debut situation where I have, as a simple example, a team of 2005 players plus Sam Crawford and Christy Matthewson. You are telling me that if I put those 2 guys in a present day situation, Crawford would still put up good power numbers, and that Matthewson would still be a good pitcher (with more strikeouts than his real life totals) but would allow at least a few HR? That is the situation I am trying to achieve, where good players from one era will be good players in the same categories given any mix of players.

BTW, thanks for the work you did with the DB, I read your entire thread this morning and its amazing the lengths fans go to in order to make this a better game.

Spritze · 07-08-2008, 09:16 PM

The playing field has been leveled so strap on your levelors and get to gaming!

silentrob · 07-09-2008, 12:13 AM

Best news I've had all day! Thanks one more time for setting me straight on all this.

Cheers!

Garlon · 07-09-2008, 07:12 AM

I think to really do cross-era matchups properly we'd need an entirely different translation of the stats. Even though everything is neutralized to 750 runs, those runs are created in different ways in different time periods of baseball.

Spritze · 07-09-2008, 01:03 PM

Aye: but however you create the runs, the skill set still exists. Doesn't matter if you create them via the SB or the HR. Runs are runs are runs. The players retain the skill set that leads to run creation. I have played many leagues this way and it all works out just peachy. Lou Gehrig in the 1990's is still a helluva firstbaseman and Leo Burke still sucks.

silentrob · 07-09-2008, 02:18 PM

Lou Gehrig in the 1990's is still a helluva firstbaseman

But if Gehrig appears in the mid 1910s (or a similar statistical environment), instead of the mid 1920s, will he be vastly more powerful than anyone else (given the actual 1915 players), or equal to a premier power guy of that decade such as Gavvy Cravath, and hit in the mid-teens for HRs?

Or to put the question in reverse, if Cravath played in a late 1990s environment, with other players from the late 1990s, will he still be a 15-ish HR guy, or hit more in the 30-40 range?

Spritze · 07-09-2008, 02:42 PM

The modifiers are what creates the league/year environment.

In a league where the modifiers shoot for 500 HR's Mr. Cravath might get 15
In a league where the modifiers shoot for 1500 HR's Mr. Cravath might get 45

It works like that more or less.

It is also dependent on where his neutralized power ranks with the particular mix of players in that particular league/year. Whether you have park effects on. Lots of things can have an effect.

The only thing I positively know of that has no effect on this is how many beers Mr. Cravath has before a game, after a game or even during a game. The effects of alcohol are not modeled by OOTP at all. Zilch. Nada. Nope. Nothing. Totally negatory.

Until alcohol consumption modeling is included in OOTP it will remain unfinished IMHO.

silentrob · 07-09-2008, 04:06 PM

Until alcohol consumption modeling is included in OOTP it will remain unfinished IMHO.

Indeed. Always need something to add for the next version, this could be it. Or maybe the game can introduce a performance variable to account for the impact of gambling and throwing games in the early years. Or an alternate database that plays the years 1995-20xx adjusted for the impact of steroids. Or a special category of free agents who are blacklisted by the league for being too demanding in salary negotiations.

In any case, now its time for me to stop worrying about historical accuracy and start enjoying an outstanding game.

07-08-2008, 12:45 PM	#1 (permalink)
silentrob Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Kalispell, MT Posts: 201 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1x in 1 post	Database question Sorry if I am being dense here, but there are some things I do not understand about the player ratings imported into ootp9. I understand how the ratings are neutralized for park factors. What I don't understand is how they are normalized (if they are) to account for different eras. For example, pitchers of the late 1960s will be superior to those whose careers were just before or just after them. Hitters of the 1920s and 1930s have terrific contact ratings, etc. Example: I import the 1930 season, only 1 pitcher has stuff greater than 5, while half the league has movement 8 or better (1-10 scale). 70% of hitters have power 3 or less. Shouldn't players who were average in one era have the same ratings as players who were average in another era? If someone could explain how the game accounts for this as historical leagues progress, I'd be very thankful.

07-08-2008, 05:25 PM	#2 (permalink)
Spritze Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Redmond Wa and Cape Coast Ghana Posts: 2,946 Thanks: 16 Thanked 344x in 242 posts	Neutralized stats mean no eras for players All ratings irregardless of historical year are neutralized to a constant 750 runs/162 games environment. So a team and its players that scored 1500 runs / 162 games would get a 50% neuter and a team and its players that scored 100 runs per 162 games would get a 750% increase. Every team scores 750 runs. Player adjustments are made based on that. Ratings compare any one player to any other in that 750 run environment. If you see a bunch of movements = 8 it just means all those players had similar normalized stats in the categories that make up movement. Incidently these normalized stats mean you can combine the admirable Sandy Koufax on the same team as disreputable Mr. Bonds and they should both play to their abilities as the era factor has been removed. One can play with mixed eras and get realistic results. Leagues still can have eras however. The strategy modifiers in game setup handle those.

07-09-2008, 02:42 PM	#9 (permalink)
Spritze Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Redmond Wa and Cape Coast Ghana Posts: 2,946 Thanks: 16 Thanked 344x in 242 posts	The modifiers are what creates the league/year environment. In a league where the modifiers shoot for 500 HR's Mr. Cravath might get 15 In a league where the modifiers shoot for 1500 HR's Mr. Cravath might get 45 It works like that more or less. It is also dependent on where his neutralized power ranks with the particular mix of players in that particular league/year. Whether you have park effects on. Lots of things can have an effect. The only thing I positively know of that has no effect on this is how many beers Mr. Cravath has before a game, after a game or even during a game. The effects of alcohol are not modeled by OOTP at all. Zilch. Nada. Nope. Nothing. Totally negatory. Until alcohol consumption modeling is included in OOTP it will remain unfinished IMHO. Last edited by Spritze; 07-09-2008 at 02:45 PM.

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07-08-2008, 06:32 PM	#3 (permalink)
silentrob Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Kalispell, MT Posts: 201 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1x in 1 post	Thanks for the response, I believe I understand what you are describing. As I am upgrading from ootp6, many things in this version are new for me. I just wanted to avoid a random debut situation where I have, as a simple example, a team of 2005 players plus Sam Crawford and Christy Matthewson. You are telling me that if I put those 2 guys in a present day situation, Crawford would still put up good power numbers, and that Matthewson would still be a good pitcher (with more strikeouts than his real life totals) but would allow at least a few HR? That is the situation I am trying to achieve, where good players from one era will be good players in the same categories given any mix of players. BTW, thanks for the work you did with the DB, I read your entire thread this morning and its amazing the lengths fans go to in order to make this a better game.

07-08-2008, 09:16 PM	#4 (permalink)
Spritze Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Redmond Wa and Cape Coast Ghana Posts: 2,946 Thanks: 16 Thanked 344x in 242 posts	The playing field has been leveled so strap on your levelors and get to gaming!

07-09-2008, 12:13 AM	#5 (permalink)
silentrob Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Kalispell, MT Posts: 201 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1x in 1 post	Best news I've had all day! Thanks one more time for setting me straight on all this. Cheers!

07-09-2008, 07:12 AM	#6 (permalink)
Garlon All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 1,551 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52x in 26 posts	I think to really do cross-era matchups properly we'd need an entirely different translation of the stats. Even though everything is neutralized to 750 runs, those runs are created in different ways in different time periods of baseball.

07-09-2008, 01:03 PM	#7 (permalink)
Spritze Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Redmond Wa and Cape Coast Ghana Posts: 2,946 Thanks: 16 Thanked 344x in 242 posts	Aye: but however you create the runs, the skill set still exists. Doesn't matter if you create them via the SB or the HR. Runs are runs are runs. The players retain the skill set that leads to run creation. I have played many leagues this way and it all works out just peachy. Lou Gehrig in the 1990's is still a helluva firstbaseman and Leo Burke still sucks.

07-09-2008, 02:18 PM	#8 (permalink)
silentrob Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Kalispell, MT Posts: 201 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1x in 1 post	Lou Gehrig in the 1990's is still a helluva firstbaseman But if Gehrig appears in the mid 1910s (or a similar statistical environment), instead of the mid 1920s, will he be vastly more powerful than anyone else (given the actual 1915 players), or equal to a premier power guy of that decade such as Gavvy Cravath, and hit in the mid-teens for HRs? Or to put the question in reverse, if Cravath played in a late 1990s environment, with other players from the late 1990s, will he still be a 15-ish HR guy, or hit more in the 30-40 range?

07-09-2008, 04:06 PM	#10 (permalink)
silentrob Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Kalispell, MT Posts: 201 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1x in 1 post	Until alcohol consumption modeling is included in OOTP it will remain unfinished IMHO. Indeed. Always need something to add for the next version, this could be it. Or maybe the game can introduce a performance variable to account for the impact of gambling and throwing games in the early years. Or an alternate database that plays the years 1995-20xx adjusted for the impact of steroids. Or a special category of free agents who are blacklisted by the league for being too demanding in salary negotiations. In any case, now its time for me to stop worrying about historical accuracy and start enjoying an outstanding game.