historical mod question

colts21 · 03-24-2009, 01:50 PM

Im new to the historical leagues and am wondering what would be the best mod to use to give the most realistic experience in terms of when teams entered, players entered and accurate stats (ie someone not hitting 71 HR's in 1880).

Another question is when the players enter the league since there was no draft back in the 19th century do these players just go to free agency or appear on the rosters of the teams they started with?

Id like to start my league as early as possible meaning preferably at least 1871 or even earlier

BaseballMan · 03-24-2009, 04:49 PM

Being new to historical leagues you may want to keep in mind that 19th century leagues are harder to setup and get
the results you want. Theres more give and take. you need to think about the amount of expansion, schedules, roster size, when to change rotation size etc.

If you want to use the exact real teams you will have to keep in mind when you have odd number of teams. The game does not deal well with that. I think there may be a work around but i think its too much work in my opinion.
So you can either edit the teams csv file to have the teams that you want or in your case i would suggest just using the database as it is and run some test leagues to see what setup you like.

The players will not appear with their original teams. You have to draft them. I think you could do it if you edit all the teams, player batting, pitching, fielding to AL or NL. But then you would also have to move some players to new teams to keep an even number of teams. I tried it but it became too much work for a non programmer.

Anyways if you use recalc and players retiring according to history i doubt if you will see 71 hr. You should usually see around maybe 5 in 1871 to well i think the most ive seen is maybe 19.
The game does the best it can with 19th century leagues at this point though it can be improved. So its really up to you to run some test leagues and go with what you like best.

Bluenoser · 03-24-2009, 05:41 PM

No MOD required, the game can be set to follow history as far as expansion/relocation goes.

You can import real players each year from the DB that comes with the game. You have the choice of having them assigned to their real teams or having them go into the draft.

BaseballMan · 03-24-2009, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BruceM

You have the choice of having them assigned to their real teams or having them go into the draft.

I dont think you can have them automatically assigned to their real teams in pre-1901 leagues.

Bluenoser · 03-24-2009, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

I dont think you can have them automatically assigned to their real teams in pre-1901 leagues.

Yes you can. The option is there in league setup.

BaseballMan · 03-24-2009, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BruceM

Yes you can. The option is there in league setup.

That only works with 1901-leagues. It does not work with 19th century leagues. Thats why you have to start a pre-1901 league with a draft. If you select no draft you will get fictional players. The game can not recognize the years there were an odd # of teams and i beleive Garlon only edited the teams csv file to keep an even # of teams. I dont think he edited so that the players would go to their assigned teams.

Bluenoser · 03-24-2009, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

That only works with 1901-leagues. It does not work with 19th century leagues. Thats why you have to start a pre-1901 league with a draft. If you select no draft you will get fictional players. The game can not recognize the years there were an odd # of teams and i beleive Garlon only edited the teams csv file to keep an even # of teams. I dont think he edited so that the players would go to their assigned teams.

I set one up earlier tonight, 1890. The option is there to import real players and have them go into the draft or to their real team. Whether there are an odd or even number of teams has no bearing on importing real players.

Jah · 03-24-2009, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BruceM

I set one up earlier tonight, 1890. The option is there to import real players and have them go into the draft or to their real team. Whether there are an odd or even number of teams has no bearing on importing real players.

When you create a pre-1901 historical league, the players are always dumped into a Draft Pool...the game even warns you of this: "Pre-1901 leagues start with an inaugural draft" (see attached screen shot).

BaseballMan · 03-24-2009, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BruceM

I set one up earlier tonight, 1890. The option is there to import real players and have them go into the draft or to their real team. Whether there are an odd or even number of teams has no bearing on importing real players.

That will assign them to the teams that Garlon edited in the database. It wont assign them to the actual real team in the case were Garlon had to remove that team to keep the expansion easier.
Im thinking he wants players on the teams they played for in real life and in order to do that he would have to edit the teams, batting, pitching, fielding csv files.
Then he would be faced with the odd number of teams.

He can do as you said if he can deal with some players being assigned to teams they didnt really play for. But then that kinda defeats the purpose of assigning players to their original teams. If there original team is not in the edited database.
And if you use the original lahman database i think your expansion wont work because of odd number of teams.

BaseballMan · 03-24-2009, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jah

When you create a pre-1901 historical league, the players are always dumped into a Draft Pool...the game even warns you of this: "Pre-1901 leagues start with an inaugural draft" (see attached screen shot).

But he is right that you can assign them to teams if you turn off draft in the following years. However it may not be the actual historical team they played for in real life.

Jah · 03-24-2009, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

But he is right that you can assign them to teams if you turn off draft in the following years. However it may not be the actual historical team they played for in real life.

Correct.

I've always been disappointed with the "pre-1901" functionality. I realize it would be difficult to program this era because of all the expansion/contraction, odd number of teams, etc., but its inclusion always felt like an afterthought to me - especially with the way the scheduling is handled in the game.

I appreciate the effort to include 19th century play, but with all the required workarounds to get semi-realistic results, it wasn't worth the trouble for me.

BaseballMan · 03-25-2009, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jah

Correct.

I've always been disappointed with the "pre-1901" functionality. I realize it would be difficult to program this era because of all the expansion/contraction, odd number of teams, etc., but its inclusion always felt like an afterthought to me - especially with the way the scheduling is handled in the game.

I appreciate the effort to include 19th century play, but with all the required workarounds to get semi-realistic results, it wasn't worth the trouble for me.

If Markus allowed us to setup an odd number of teams in a league and let us worry about making a schedule it might be easier. Maybe setting a final date for the schedule to end instead of each team having an even number of games. However i dont know how much programming that would take and theres probably more important aspects of the game he needs to work on.

You have to keep in mind that until Garlon convinced Markus that 19th century leagues could be done in version 2008 i beleive it was, we always had to do a work around by creating a league in 1870 and simming till the draft and then copying the 1871 player.dat file over the fictional one in the creation folder. More work and im glad those days are gone.

You are right in 19th century leagues may be an afterthought but i dont think Markus ever intended to do it.
We were just lucky that he listened and basically it is up to us to do what we can. Not that he wouldnt listen if it was something he could do quickly but we cant expect him to spend more time on this than modern leagues.

So you have to do what you can. In my case i like the constant chaos of teams changing in the 19th century so i edited the database to reflect that. Though i had to make an exception in combining the AA & NL teams and only using team nicknames once.
I make a schedule run from April to Oct with the 95th day being the allstar game. Sure theres a week between games when you start with a 30 game schedule but i find it more realistic in giving your picthers a rest when using
1-man rotations than having the game set up a schedule from april-may.

If you try to get stats as accurate as modern leagues you may be disappointed. However i dont find it too bad. Its a little give and take. To me once you make a plan on how your league setup will be, how the changes in your expansion, rotation, roster size etc will happen its not too bad. But i think the key is you need to have a plan on how you will proceed each season much more than with modern leagues.

Jah · 03-25-2009, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

You are right in 19th century leagues may be an afterthought but i dont think Markus ever intended to do it. We were just lucky that he listened and basically it is up to us to do what we can. Not that he wouldnt listen if it was something he could do quickly but we cant expect him to spend more time on this than modern leagues.

So you have to do what you can. In my case i like the constant chaos of teams changing in the 19th century so i edited the database to reflect that. Though i had to make an exception in combining the AA & NL teams and only using team nicknames once.

All good points. Like I said, I really appreciate the effort to give us something for 19th century play...but what bothered me is that it was promoted as a new feature in the last version, and I assumed it would work realistically with little or no workarounds necessary. Instead, we found out after the fact about all the compromises, required initial inaugural draft, poor scheduling (not good for 1-man rotations), inability to handle an odd number of teams, etc.

The compromise presented wasn't bad, and I'm sure took a lot of time to put together (Garlon's database edits, etc.), but we should have been told all of this up front - then our expectations would have been more tempered when the game was released.

I love OOTP, but don't have a lot of extra time to edit schedules and test new leagues over and over - when I heard 19th century play was now supported, I assumed it would function the same way 20th century play worked. Again, nice that it was added in some form, but it was kind of unplayable out of the box...a heads-up prior to release would have been nice.

BaseballMan · 03-25-2009, 04:18 PM

I think it was one of those learn as you go. It may have been something that should have waited a year but even with all the trouble im still glad its in the game.
I just look at as a leagues growing years. Like it was in real baseball. The game wasnt perfect right away. But it also makes it harder to mimic the real thing because of all the chaos of that era with teams folding and missing data.

The only thing i did was edit the teams & franchise csv files and made schedules. If you plan your expansion and then make your schedules according to your schedule length & roster size its much easier.

Like i said i always run my schedules from april-may whether its 30 or 140.
I just make the 95th day falling on july 4th to be the allstar game. So the 93rd through the 97th days are the allstar break. Then i just name my schedule
30G8T, 60G10T. With the first number being the schedule length & the other number being the total # of teams in the league. Then all i have to do is import as needed. No sense worrying about real historical schedules sense we cant have odd number of teams.

Maybe we should write down our steps in setting up a league and how we proceed and maybe see what seems to be the best solutions.

03-24-2009, 01:50 PM	#1 (permalink)
colts21 Bat Boy Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 13 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0x in 0 posts	historical mod question Im new to the historical leagues and am wondering what would be the best mod to use to give the most realistic experience in terms of when teams entered, players entered and accurate stats (ie someone not hitting 71 HR's in 1880). Another question is when the players enter the league since there was no draft back in the 19th century do these players just go to free agency or appear on the rosters of the teams they started with? Id like to start my league as early as possible meaning preferably at least 1871 or even earlier

03-24-2009, 05:41 PM	#3 (permalink)
Bluenoser Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 5,598 Thanks: 56 Thanked 442x in 307 posts	No MOD required, the game can be set to follow history as far as expansion/relocation goes. You can import real players each year from the DB that comes with the game. You have the choice of having them assigned to their real teams or having them go into the draft. __________________ It takes neither courage nor intelligence to cheer for a team only when that team wins. The true test of a fan's mettle is the same as it is for a player: Were you there when you were needed?

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03-24-2009, 04:49 PM	#2 (permalink)
BaseballMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 3,536 Thanks: 8 Thanked 90x in 60 posts	Being new to historical leagues you may want to keep in mind that 19th century leagues are harder to setup and get the results you want. Theres more give and take. you need to think about the amount of expansion, schedules, roster size, when to change rotation size etc. If you want to use the exact real teams you will have to keep in mind when you have odd number of teams. The game does not deal well with that. I think there may be a work around but i think its too much work in my opinion. So you can either edit the teams csv file to have the teams that you want or in your case i would suggest just using the database as it is and run some test leagues to see what setup you like. The players will not appear with their original teams. You have to draft them. I think you could do it if you edit all the teams, player batting, pitching, fielding to AL or NL. But then you would also have to move some players to new teams to keep an even number of teams. I tried it but it became too much work for a non programmer. Anyways if you use recalc and players retiring according to history i doubt if you will see 71 hr. You should usually see around maybe 5 in 1871 to well i think the most ive seen is maybe 19. The game does the best it can with 19th century leagues at this point though it can be improved. So its really up to you to run some test leagues and go with what you like best.

03-25-2009, 04:18 PM	#14 (permalink)
BaseballMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 3,536 Thanks: 8 Thanked 90x in 60 posts	I think it was one of those learn as you go. It may have been something that should have waited a year but even with all the trouble im still glad its in the game. I just look at as a leagues growing years. Like it was in real baseball. The game wasnt perfect right away. But it also makes it harder to mimic the real thing because of all the chaos of that era with teams folding and missing data. The only thing i did was edit the teams & franchise csv files and made schedules. If you plan your expansion and then make your schedules according to your schedule length & roster size its much easier. Like i said i always run my schedules from april-may whether its 30 or 140. I just make the 95th day falling on july 4th to be the allstar game. So the 93rd through the 97th days are the allstar break. Then i just name my schedule 30G8T, 60G10T. With the first number being the schedule length & the other number being the total # of teams in the league. Then all i have to do is import as needed. No sense worrying about real historical schedules sense we cant have odd number of teams. Maybe we should write down our steps in setting up a league and how we proceed and maybe see what seems to be the best solutions.