Gauging Interest Threads: Yes or No?

[kq76]

You two, jazz and jundogg, are maybe right and if we were starting this board from the very beginning I'd most likely be right with you on it. But when things are established and people are relatively happy with how things are then sometimes I think the best course of action is just to try your best working around or tweaking what already works.

Jazz, you brought up how forums are like buildings with elevators and I agree. I like to use forums are like different house parties on the same block, but you can fit this to a building with elevators too. So let's pretend the group of OOTPX online league boards is one small house party. Someone walks in and they're instantly in the biggest room of the house where most of the people are congregating and chatting it up. The prevalent topic just happens to be trying to match up would-be managers with leagues. Now the house also has two smaller rooms in the rear of the building where people go to talk too: one being the kitchen where the commissioners go to talk recipes and one is the dining room where managers like to sit down and talk about different things (the bedroom is private).

Everything works relatively well, except some in living room feel that a certain topic is too off-topic and that it's interrupting the important business of league-manager matching. So now we've got some (or one, I don't know) saying (again, I'm not sure), "Please, just kick them out of here! Or at least ask them to go to the dining room or build another room, but do something".

Then we've got some in the dining room saying, "you know, everyone would benefit if strategy was talked more so really we should move to living room and those just looking to conduct business should move here". Those people probably have a very good point, but the more just-business people certainly aren't going to like that idea (they certainly threw a fit when we first built the dining room and brought up that maybe that's where they should then go) and seeing as how there's a lot more of them it probably wouldn't make much sense to put them in a smaller room anyway. Now we could build another large room (new small or large rooms luckily don't cost much different in our example) to put the just-business people in, but we just can't change the fact (it's cost-prohibitive) that the front entrance opens to the original living room so the just-business people would have to go to the back of the house to the new large room if it was built and they're a very picky bunch so they probably wouldn't like that one bit neither.

So the property manager ( :waves: ) says, "okay, well, let's try to solve this in a way that's likely to please people the most / piss off people the least". Telling the mainly just-business people to go to another room is likely to just be a big headache so let's forget about that for now. These few people looking to gauge interest in their league ideas do deserve a place to ask for input and they do deserve to feel welcome. The question is then: is where they are good enough or should they be moved to the dining room with the more general conversation or should a new room be made for them? Luckily we're very rich and can easily afford it, but unfortunately the only construction company in town is usually very busy and sometimes we get the impression they'd rather not be bothered by such small job requests.

That's how I see it. And if I can get advice in answer to that question then that'd be great. Let's set a target date of October 1st for making the decision whatever it may be.

P.S. I hope you liked my story.

[Goody]

satchel's Original post was posed as a question, and then he went into his views on the subject. I don't see why people are taking offense to what he's saying as if he is trying to dictate what is allowed here.

He wanted to know what everyone thought and then he argued his side and give his opinions. He wasn't telling you all what to do like he's in charge.

[Goody]

The most recent Laseron Baseball thread was not a league advertisement. It had been long defunct when J posted about it. So in a way it was a "gauging interest" thread, if you could even call it that.

But his thread led to the revival of the league and a reunion of its past members so to speak.

Now, we keep bumping the same thread and me and some others have become motivated to work on the league again.

This is positive stuff that came from a non-recruitment thread in the Online Leagues forum.

There's always a chance the league doesn't get finished, or doesn't become a successful online league again. Who knows what can happen? But right now, there's a lot to be said for what has come of J's post about the league so far.

[kq76]

Originally Posted by 9lives

satchel's Original post was posed as a question, and then he went into his views on the subject. I don't see why people are taking offense to what he's saying as if he is trying to dictate what is allowed here.

He wanted to know what everyone thought and then he argued his side and give his opinions. He wasn't telling you all what to do like he's in charge.

I certainly don't at all want satchel to come off as a villain here and I apologize if anything I've said has made it look that way. He's one of, if not the most, passionate and helpful members of our little community and IMO we'd be much worse off without him. Exact same goes for BruceM. Believe me when I say I have a great deal of respect for both of them.

That said, IMO he did come off too strong (as I'm sure I frequently do). The original few posts of this thread were in reply to a gauging interest thread and I can't help but think that it must have seemed to the OP as though it was like a flying brick out of nowhere directed to the head. I would have much preferred it if he had just started this thread like I moved it to (I gave it the question title too). It's true, this is not the first time he's brought it up and so maybe I should have done something more sooner. We had discussed it and I was under the impression that me adding "- Gauging Interest" to such threads made them at least tolerable, but obviously it's not enough.

Anyway, it may have not started off ideally, but hopefully it'll turn into something better.

Originally Posted by 9lives

...

There's always a chance the league doesn't get finished, or doesn't become a successful online league again. Who knows what can happen? But right now, there's a lot to be said for what has come of J's post about the league so far.

Well said. Although it's a bit different in that it was a once thriving league, you're exactly right that that's more of a gauging interest thread and I'm quite happy to see the interest in it. There's no doubt in my mind that threads like that, league started yet or not, deserve a place. It's just a question of where is best.

[kq76]

BTW, I do plan on writing up a Board Organization sticky to try to better explain where threads should go as I realize that it's probably pretty unclear as it is even with the board descriptions. I'll incorporate the "Ads will be moved if not.." sticky into it too. I'll post it once we sort this question out.

In case we do go with a new sub-board, any suggestions on the name? I'm trying to think of a synonym for "Idea Men" or at least something that is descriptive yet kind of goes with our current set-up. I'm specifically trying to think of what we call people who propose new ideas. I should have paid more attention in my philosophy classes...

[Stu]

Buildings with elevators, house parties? I think we're making this a little more complicated than it needs to be.

To me, it's a simple solution:
- Online League forum for general online discussion, managers discussion, gauging interest, etc
- subforum for league ads
- subforum for commissioners corner

The specialized forums should have their own subforum. It's counter intuitive to have the parent forum only contain league ads. You shouldn't have to explain what posts should go in what subforum. It should make sense just by looking at the forum title.

This would be easier for users to understand and easier to moderate.

[kq76]

Okay, I've added a poll. Let me be perfectly clear, however: we are not going to just go with whatever wins the poll. If we left board management up to the masses I fear we'd vote for no rules at all just because it'd be so much damn fun for many to see the place burn to the ground, but that's just not going to happen so don't get your hopes up. :P Articulated reasoning is much more important than a simple vote, but a vote will help me see exactly what individuals would like to end up seeing. Also note that if I end up thinking a new sub-board is best then I'll have to make my case to Andreas and ask him to make it to which he may just say, "no, just do X" to which I'll most likely just do X (as opposed to arguing any further for Y). I'm now going to try to walk away from this topic for a week and come back to it afterwards, but please feel free to continue on discussing it.

[ShoelessJ03]

The way the poll reads is still backwards. There is no need for a subforum just for gauging interest threads. Might as well leave it as is now.

The simple solution is as Stu stated:
- Online League forum for general online discussion, managers discussion, gauging interest, etc
- subforum for league ads
- subforum for commissioners corner

Can't get any easier or direct than that. There would be no confusion as to where a post belongs. It is self explanatory in the sub/forum title.

[fhomess]

FWIW, I see more threads on the forum's first page stating that a GM is looking for a league than I do guaging interest threads. This, despite the fact that there's a sticky for GM's looking for a league at the top of the thread. I'll admit, I'm not sure if I were looking for a league that I would use the sticky. Seems like it would be easy to get lost in the shuffle of other people's posts there.

I personally don't mind the guaging interest threads if they seem genuine. I'm not a fan of someone spamming the forum with multiples of them. However, they're certainly on-topic even if they don't often amount to someone creating a league. In some respects, I'd rather see a new OOTPer get little interest to his online league idea that he hasn't invested a lot of money and time into than to see him commit to that league and still get no interest. There are a lot of leagues that come and go quickly for a variety of reasons, but one of those reasons is failure to keep the league full. I've been down that road as a commish myself, and it's not very fun.

[tarmer]

I appreciate the discussion this has been given.. It was not my intent when I initially posted to create a stir - I do take exception however to Satchel's post declaring gauging interests as a nusiance and taking up valuable real-estate

Most people on these boards have played OOTP for several years and in so doing helped support the OOTP product and this community. So we should all be on the same footing regardless of the number of posts beneath our Avatar, Some people just do not post as often...

The problem I have and the reason for my posting a "gauging interest" post can now be quantified for everyone to see... As I mentioned before, There was a time when you could fill a league in a day, And this was not always good because as fast as you could fill it you would start losing managers (for a variety of reasons) nothing in the formula of the league changed so it became external issues. This leads to frustration and to be honest an expense of both money as well as personal investment....

I have seen these leagues start up on free hosting and forum sites, And though they may be in all honesty just as good as hosting on a "paid" host - People have a perception of what the product is if it is on a free site.

So people invest in a hosted site (these were not always as cheap as they are now) spend time (maybe money) putting together a presentable League Site - and all that entails and BOOM they advertise - What they may get is the scenerio posted above people coming and going - So the league never fully develops no matter how much energy and effort are put into it and next thing you know "Empty" - So now the investment is for naught

Leagues are no longer filling as quickly as GM's are fewer and farther between and a lot are allready in several leagues that they like and are established...

So my gauging interest here was to try and get a real feel for any kind of following by putting together a "decent" yet not totally complete league site without expending a ton of resources doing it..

And to date I have not got one post or e-mail relating to it, Though several people have visited the site not one has inquired - This goes to my case for posting.. You normally get some kind of post usually asking for rules, more clarification etc... But this one, Nothing

So I could have as it has been said - Built it and they would come - But would I be any farther along trying to fill this league if I had spent more time or money ?

So I think gauging intrest threads should be allowed - Now if you want to put them in another spot that is up to the powers that run this board - But to say they are not needed I think is a little harsh and actually in this case proven to be incorrect

[Goody]

Originally Posted by Stu

Buildings with elevators, house parties? I think we're making this a little more complicated than it needs to be.

To me, it's a simple solution:
- Online League forum for general online discussion, managers discussion, gauging interest, etc
- subforum for league ads
- subforum for commissioners corner

The specialized forums should have their own subforum. It's counter intuitive to have the parent forum only contain league ads. You shouldn't have to explain what posts should go in what subforum. It should make sense just by looking at the forum title.

This would be easier for users to understand and easier to moderate.

I like that.

[endgame]

Again, not my area, but my anyway, FWIW. I don't see the online environment in the forums any differently than tabs in the game experience. It's always preferable to have them as clearly marked as possible AND have them used to full function. I suppose that means you may have some overlap, but overall what you expect to find, you do.

As goes function, it seems pretty clear to me- as was stated earlier -that you have GMs (or potential GMs) looking for leagues, leagues looking for GMs, existing leagues' ads and complete descriptions, and general discussion by GMs(managers) and the online world. I would think, I here is where I don't know quite how it's currently utilized, that one would be constantly using the other; maybe more than I perceive them to be from my very far away vantage point.

If I need positions filled, I'm scouring the FA tab and looking for potential trades. If I am looking for GMs for a league, I'd presumably be dissecting that GMs Looking for Leagues forum as badly as I wanted vacancies filled, and vice versa. I would expect exchanges, maybe private messages, but in the spirit of 'bringing the game to life', it may serve the community well- especially the newer online users -to see the selling points, questions, answers, and negotiations take place.

Ah, well. Just thinking aloud. It's your world guys, and kq always has the best of intentions. With the other community online leaders, you're in good hands. What's a little scuffle between League Lords? It's good media, if nothing else. It got my attention!

[rberney]

Eh... I think 'gauging' interest should be left in the online leagues forum.

You moved my own post which was just talking about what people liked/didn't like to the mangers forum and it's gotten like 3 replies... which either leads me to believe that NOBODY cares - which is sad - or that most people don't go to the managers lounge and therefore will never see or reply to my post.

Which then defeats the purpose of driving discussion about leagues... and also makes one wonder if anybody is actually playing this game or cares to discuss potential leagues, likes or dislikes.

It's not 'clutter'.. it's a discussion and hopefully will get people interested and involved in what they like or don't like or about other leagues that might start.

[kq76]

Just in case anyone is thinking, "you know, October 1st has come and gone and there's still no word"... I am here and I thought I had it decided (I was going to go with option 2 and detail the reasons why), but then I: 1) looked at the poll with leave everything as it is as the strong favourite and, 2) read jundogg's and endgame's latest posts about how putting league ads in the sub-board instead just makes so much sense for trying to understand where posts should go and now, well, I've realized that what should maybe be a minor easy thing to decide, just isn't. Maybe we should just leave everything as is and if it annoys a few people, tough. Or maybe we should totally restructure our part of the boards here and if a whole bunch of people throw a fit over it, so what, there's a good chance it will be better for everyone in the end and sooner or later most will realize that, if it is indeed true.

I hate to do this because it just seems so trivial that I shouldn't bug him over it, but I'm going to bring it up with Andreas to see what he thinks.

[kq76]

I've heard back from Andreas (he read the entire thread) and his opinion is that it should all stay as it is. I disagree. I think those threads should go on the managers' board, but I'd rather not insist on going with what I think when Andreas has a solid opinion. So, we'll go with his choice for now. If it seems like it just isn't working for some reason, then we'll try something else.

If anyone is curious of my reasons for what my choice was, you can see below the post I drafted earlier. If we end up trying something else, that something will probably have the same reasons.

Lastly, since it has now been decided, I really don't want to see any complaints by anybody about gauging interest threads being on the main board. Actually, I'd really rather not see anyone go directly at anyone else for anything here on the online league boards. I think this was most likely just a little hiccup and maybe it has been blown way out of proportion, but still, I wish it hadn't happened (I wonder if I've lost a friend over it, I'll apologize in a PM). If anyone does end up having an issue with something here, then please see the first sentence of the second last paragraph below. If we really want the online league sub-community to be as good as it possibly can, then we should try our best to try to make everyone feel as welcome as possible. And if for some reason someone really shouldn't be made to feel welcome (e.g. they cheat or steal), then let's at least do it in an as civil/organized way as possible.

Thank you.

Okay, I've settled on what we're going to do. My goal was to do what was right/best while I also wanted to try to make people the most happy. Sometimes those two goals can conflict, but in the end for this case I don't think they do. You may also look at it as a compromise between two extremes. Now this might not be anyone's first choice, in fact it may be some people's last choice, but I believe it's the right choice at least for now and I think it's a choice that most will be fine accepting.

What we're going to do is go with putting the gauging interest threads on the managers' board.

Why? Well, let's first say why the other options aren't as good.

1) Against staying with the status quo I just agree that there's plenty enough reason to give the prime screen space to existing leagues trying their best to be as full as possible. There's ample justification for allowing these gauging interest threads so they certainly do deserve a spot, but if the leagues aren't yet going then they shouldn't take away from those that are. Once they're ready for primetime then they can compete for the prime screen space.

2) Against going with a new board, we could have maybe a half dozen or more sub-boards if we really tried to put each thing in its own little box and I'm sure no one wants to see much of the main board pushed down for sub-boards (and stickies, some of which people probably rarely read). People are also likely right when they say that the less things you have on a sub-board, the less likely people are going to bother reading what's there and so while it might be nice to have a specific spot for these threads and it might make it easier for people to find them, there's also a fair chance that doing so would completely kill them as I don't think it is likely that many people are going to make a point of going in there just to check such threads out. If anything, mainly just those who use the new or today's posts forum functions would see their titles and check them out.

3) Against going with a complete restructure of the boards (putting ads in the sub-board and the general topics on the main board), I believe it would upset things too much and while I think there could very well be a benefit from doing so long-term, I'm just not convinced enough that it would be worth throwing everything on its ear for everyone. While I understand that it is how most boards are organized on the internet so it would probably make it simpler to figure out for newbies, I think the managers' board still works and with a board organization sticky I think most confusion, if there is much at all, should, for the most part at least, be cleared up and if any remains then people can just ask in that sticky. Besides, I'm also still very much convinced that the main reason why most people come to this section at all is to check out ads and probably the most important goal for this section is to fill leagues and so to make people have to go through another step to do so just doesn't make much sense to me. General topics are very interesting to me, much more so than most ads, as I'm sure they are to many of you regulars as well and it most likely would greatly benefit our community more if we discussed them more, but I can't get around being convinced that they're just not what most people who come to the section are coming here for nor do I believe that in the end they're more important than filling leagues. If one day we find most leagues are having no problem being full and/or we somehow come to the conclusion that discussing general topics really is more important than filling leagues, then, by all means, let's do it.

After all that, I think it just follows that the best course of action is to go with putting the gauging interest threads on the managers' board. It shouldn't upset many people much, if any, while it gives those topics a place that fits.

Finally, I'd like to ask something of everyone: if you have an issue with something, please either bring it to the attention of us moderators (which, yes, was first done with this issue awhile ago) and/or start a thread on it asking for opinions (like this thread does). No matter how frustrated you might be, please try to keep it as cool as possible. Doing otherwise just isn't good for the community. This plea doesn't just come from this issue, it comes from a few recent ones.

I'll try get to that Board Organization sticky in the next few days.