Learning Pitches? SP to MR

[AstrosKing]

I see a lot of great relievers coming up through my farm that used to be SP. I can tell because of the stamina they possess. I have seen a few with a 100 stamina and many with 80+ stamina. The problem is that these pitchers only possess 2 pitches. Most of the time these pitches are in addition to the fastball (and the fastball has no rating even though the speed is mid 90's and up). OK so the guy throws a dead straight fastball because speed isn't everything but it doesn't hurt.

I know that many relievers used to be SP, so I don't have a problem with it overall. It seems suspect to me that a team drafts a SP in the first round, sometimes first overall, and doesn't at least try to teach the guy another pitch or improve the fastball to have some rating. I have seen pitchers with 101+ mph speed and 0 on the fastball rating. These top-end guys with other good pitches and pitching ratings are the ones I would think a team would try make a top end starter out of when the stamina rating is high.

It would be nice if you could make a pitcher work on learning new pitches while in development. (If there is a way to do this please let me know.) It would be especially helpful to be able to specify the developmental pitch. The player's work ethic and intelligence could be a huge factor in being able to learn the new pitch.

Also, it would be nice if pitchers just randomly (not a high probability) learned new pitches. Having a pitcher with a high skill in a pitch and the right personality on the same pitching staff to share his knowledge could be a way to help. This could even happen on the major league level. I have many times heard of guys adding (or at least trying to add) new pitches in the majors.

I know you can go in with the commissioner's tool and set potential, but it would be nice to have it be something the game did on its own.

[dougmichel]

I remember something in version 11 where all new draft picks were coming up with only 2 pitches as well. Sounds like this may be happening again in this version. I would also REALLY love the ability to try to teach guys a new pitch, or have it just happen randomly sometimes (Mariano Rivera learned his devastating cutter while messing around one day, now that is taking him directly to the HOF). A randomly learned new pitch doesn't need to happen often, maybe you get 1-3 guys in your entire system learn one, maybe guys with the smarts or ethic as proposed by the OP, maybe you get 5 dice rolls with really low odds, you select who gets the rolls, something could be worked out. You can sometimes teach a guy a new position just by throwing him out there, why not allowing pitchers to pick up a new tool?

[OutS|der]

pitchers will pick up a 3rd pitch from time to time, happened in 11 as well
not sure how often but it does happen

[ike121212]

This is a sore subject for many people. Third pitches are learned randomly. There's many suggestions for improvement, but none made into 12.

[AstrosKing]

Originally Posted by OutS|der

pitchers will pick up a 3rd pitch from time to time, happened in 11 as well
not sure how often but it does happen

Originally Posted by ike121212

This is a sore subject for many people. Third pitches are learned randomly. There's many suggestions for improvement, but none made into 12.

Good to know.

I have been playing OOTP since coming over from Season Ticket Baseball. I haven't played every version, and was usually behind the latest version. The last version I had before 12 was 8... you get the idea. I have read the forums from time to time and used some mods. This time I got the new version and decided to get into the forums. I will say I enjoy all the helpful sharing that goes on here.

I also played another sim baseball game (not sure about the etiquette here about mentioning competing products) which I had played since its beginnings. I like things about both products. One thing the other game did was tell you that X pitcher just learned a new pitch from X pitcher in spring training. Just a little message that popped up. Usually the pitch was really bad but could improve in time, sometimes it never did.

That being said, the detail that OOTP provides puts it a step (at least) above the rest. So if this is just a quirk I have to put up, then I'll live.

[Biggio509]

Learning a third pitch is completely random but from what I have heard it may be much more likely in the low minors. Second part is speculation. I wonder if some of the issue is really old coding. Pitchers used to increase in stamina over time and before there were pitches in the game and just stuff ratings guys who should have just MR or CL became pretty good starters as their stamina rose.

Instead of changing how stamina increases in 2006(?) pitches were added and a starter had at least 3 good pitches while a reliever did not. The probability of learning an extra pitch or even losing a pitch with aging and injury has existed but has been small. In the old system too many good SP were in leagues because it was too easy for stamina to rise turning a bullpen guy into a viable starter.

Now stamina plays a lot smaller role. I have seen guys with less than 10 stamina on a 20 point scale being viable starters if they have enough pitches. I don't like using them because you can't get as many innings but the AI does it all the time. What I am not sure of is if the stamina growth was ever tamed.

Honestly, if you look at the majors few pitches learn new pitches. Scouts talk a lot about a pitcher's pitches and how good they are. Most of the time, a player has a major league fastball in HS. The problem is he is far from major league control. Lack of a third pitch does not mean a pitcher can't throw 3 pitches he just throws so bad or with so little control that he would never use it in a game.

In some respects I think the old system may have worked just as well if stamina were kept under control. Now you have numerous starters who can't pitch 5 and should be in the bullpen and numerous relievers who could pitch complete games if they had 3 pitches. Stamina should not be the only thing that determines SP vs. MR like in the old days but it should play a larger role. No one is going to use a guy who does not have the stamina to pitch 200 innings as an ace even if his stuff is better and his 3 or 4 pitches are better than a number 2 guy.

IMO, they are too many top stamina relievers and not enough high stamina starters. I can see a number 5 SP with 6 or 8 stamina if he has good control and stuff but an ace who can't pitch 150 innings a year? That is a little out there. With relievers it is less of a problem but stamina affects how many days in a row can a pitcher pitch. Those with say 100 stamina can pitch 2 or 3 innings on back to back days. 20 stamina guys might be getting tired when they pitch 1 inning two days in a row.

[AstrosKing]

Originally Posted by Biggio509

Honestly, if you look at the majors few pitches learn new pitches. Scouts talk a lot about a pitcher's pitches and how good they are. Most of the time, a player has a major league fastball in HS. The problem is he is far from major league control. Lack of a third pitch does not mean a pitcher can't throw 3 pitches he just throws so bad or with so little control that he would never use it in a game.

Agreed. I thought the control rating would have some effect here. Sounds like maybe control is just how BB are issued then.

Originally Posted by Biggio509

With relievers it is less of a problem but stamina affects how many days in a row can a pitcher pitch. Those with say 100 stamina can pitch 2 or 3 innings on back to back days. 20 stamina guys might be getting tired when they pitch 1 inning two days in a row.

I wondered about that. Good to know.

I have started to evaluate the top tier SP in the upcoming draft pool. If they have a Fastball rating then I leave them alone no matter how many pitches they have. If no Fastball rating is present and they are flamethrowers (95+) then I give them a potential rating (usually based on their lowest rated pitch) and a 1 actual rating in fastball. Just testing this to see how it works out. Right now there are too many blue rated relievers (like 76+ on 80 point scale) in my league.

[ike121212]

Originally Posted by AstrosKing

I have started to evaluate the top tier SP in the upcoming draft pool. If they have a Fastball rating then I leave them alone no matter how many pitches they have. If no Fastball rating is present and they are flamethrowers (95+) then I give them a potential rating (usually based on their lowest rated pitch) and a 1 actual rating in fastball. Just testing this to see how it works out. Right now there are too many blue rated relievers (like 76+ on 80 point scale) in my league.

Cutters and Sinkers are both considered types of Fastballs in OOTP. All pitchers have at least 1 of the 3, except maybe Knuckleballers.

The number of quality relievers has always bugged me too. I wish we had some way to control this. As bad as it is in a modern era league, it's ruins older eras for me. Giving a team in 1910 a stacked bullpen, which the AI won't use because of game settings, is unplayable to me.

[Biggio509]

In 12 it seems like fewer MRs are generated in earlier eras but still too many. I try to use roster limits to tame this but often that leads to 11 to 12 starters and 3 or 4 pitchers with 2 man rotations. Setting your limits to 15 man until you get 4 man rotations then maybe upping it to 18 helps with this.

[Biggio509]

I can understand why you want to do this. However, in the game the type of pitch does not matter to my knowledge. There is something special about the knuckleball but I don't remember what. The only reason they are there is to get a stuff rating. Don't take this as 100% accurate but IIRC, stuff is based on the top 2 pitches for relievers and top 3 pitches for starters. This is why a 2 pitch pitcher's stuff rating drops when you switch him to starter and his stars. SP's stuff is based on the top 3 pitches. In some cases a guy with a crappy third pitch will get a little better overall ranking and stuff when switched to a MR. There is also a stuff bonus to relievers and closer because they usually don't face the batting order more than once.

Also note a really good 2 pitch pitcher with good stamina can start. His stuff is just really hurt when you shift him to SP. Sometimes this is better than other SP options. In fact often in the low minors where stuff must mean less the game often places good future closers as starters over crappy to even decent SPs. By AA it does not do that unless you are just short SPs but it will do it often in the minors. A 2 pitch pitcher can be successful as a starter. I remember in 11 I had an ace who lost a pitch to age and injury. He was still better than my number 5 pitcher with 2 pitches compared to 5's 3. You want to try to get guys with 3 pitchers but a top notch reliever might be better in the rotation than a scrub SP.

Also note you want starters in the SP role it affects stuff and how fatigued they get. It may sound silly but a guy in the rotation with MR will tire out faster since the tiredness factors you might need him tomorrow. He really doesn't tire faster just that percentage is based on he might need to pitch tomorrow. Essentially the coach is telling you to take him early because we may need him tomorrow.

He will last longer in the game but take longer to recover if his role is SP. In this case the tiredness is a reflection of the ability to pitch 100 pitches in a game as opposed to pitch an inning tomorrow.

[jmknpk2]

I know I would like to be able to teach a pitcher a new pitch to improve his value to me as a general manager. But I don't think it's that easy to do in real life. Otherwise, I would think more pitchers would be learning more at the request of their team staff. I'm really no expert and just guessing about real life learning of new pitches.

The way the game has players learning random pitches doesn't seem too far off of my perception of how it works in real life. So I'm comfortable with the way the game handles this.

[Biggio509]

I can only think of a couple of times where I know pitchers have learned new pitches. Early in his career Oswalt worked on a new change up in ST. I think Daryl Kyle developed a different curve at some point. That is about it I can think of. 2 guys in the early 2000's and nothing I am aware before or after. This might be more common in the minors though.

The reason the game does not do this is we would make way too many great SPs. Seriously would you not teach a closer with good stamina a new pitch? There is a little more to it than just pitch selection if the guy is closing.

I think the frustration is more of a lack of real SP talent. Sure the league totals make up for it but after a while a 5 star pitcher is a very rare thing while 5 star hitters are not especially in the OF. There should be a lot more borderline guys who are long relief types and a bump on the quality of SPs. The real problem is not a lack of being able to make relievers starters but a lack of superstar quality pitchers in drafts. Most drafts see average SPs and a bunch of junk. There are few SPs even in the draft. Often you have to spend a high draft pick on a guy whose potentials are pretty average but is a 4 star potential guy based on the lack of quality of SPs in the league. I can't remember the last time I saw a SP with all blue ratings other than those initially created.

[thbroman]

I agree that learning a new pitch is less common than many of us seem to think, although we should ask ourselves what a "new pitch" means. In some cases, it means learning to throw the same pitch with a slightly altered grip or release to make something like a fastball move one way or another a little bit. In real life, that's not a major breakthrough in the pitcher's art, but OOTP treats learning to throw a 4-seamer like learning to throw a split-fingered curve or a screwball. Also, don't forget that practically every knuckleballer in the bigs learned it as a "new pitch". Knuckleballers are too few in number to constitute an important exception to the new pitch generalization (that is, that relatively few pitchers really learn a new pitch), but it does suggest that for the next incarnation of OOTP Markus modify the coding so that learning to throw certain "new pitches" is less of a stretch than others. I don't know how well this would work to solve the problem of there being too few high-quality starters.

[kevrock]

Originally Posted by Biggio509

I can only think of a couple of times where I know pitchers have learned new pitches. Early in his career Oswalt worked on a new change up in ST. I think Daryl Kyle developed a different curve at some point. That is about it I can think of. 2 guys in the early 2000's and nothing I am aware before or after. This might be more common in the minors though.

Plenty of established pitchers add cutters to their repertoire as they age. There was a recent SI article about it if you are interested: Is the cut fastball a magic pitch? It - 06.13.11 - SI Vault

Lots of pitchers come out of college with two plus pitches and enter the minors with a need to develop a third pitch. Often a pitcher will have a plus fastball, plus slider, and have a changeup that needs a lot of work. Alex Meyer is one example from this draft, but if you ever watch the draft this is pretty common. Perhaps having many pitchers enter the draft with a low rated third instead of not having one at all would be more realistic.

I agree that adding new pitchers is something that happens in the minors. I've read several articles about various pitchers working with pitching coaches or roving pitching instructors and picking up new pitchers.

[kevrock]

Originally Posted by thbroman

I agree that learning a new pitch is less common than many of us seem to think, although we should ask ourselves what a "new pitch" means. In some cases, it means learning to throw the same pitch with a slightly altered grip or release to make something like a fastball move one way or another a little bit. In real life, that's not a major breakthrough in the pitcher's art, but OOTP treats learning to throw a 4-seamer like learning to throw a split-fingered curve or a screwball.

True. I've had OOTP pitchers who's velocity sits 97-99mph and they know four pitches -- all offspeed. No 2seam or 4seam fastballs.

[thbroman]

Originally Posted by kevrock

Perhaps having many pitchers enter the draft with a low rated third instead of not having one at all would be more realistic.

Good idea!

[Biggio509]

From a realistic standpoint I like it but from a game standpoint it might take some big tweaks to development. What the game tries to is keep SP and MR balance. Too many guys might develop into SP's under this system.

I still think the main issue is more a lack of quality SP generation than it is an issue with learning pitches. I would be happen just a few more SPs and more quality in general. There are too many times your 4 and 5 guys have 6+ ERAs and there is no one in the minors who can do better.

[RonCo]

The whole process kinda works, but there have always been logical flaws with the algorithms as they are written. It won't really get "well" until the logic flaws are addressed. Ultimately each pitch needs to have its own ratings (velocity, movement, control, and maybe command). Then the overall stuff/movement/control (K/AB, HR/AB, BB/PA) ratings needed to convert pitcher/batter events into results can be generated. In addition, a pitcher's stamina needs to be adjustable based on his usage pattern. It should be relatively rare to find a guy who can't throw 100-120 pitches if properly stretched, but many of those would become ineffective much earlier just based on quality of pitches. Finally, the game shouldn't rely upon a pitcher's "set" position. If he starts he should throw like a starter (and fatigue/recover like a starter), and if he relieves he should throw like a reliever (and fatigue/recover like one).

This is not rocket science.

Player creation, however, is much more complex. I was looking at it some time ago, and it was in great need of a major overhaul even before the game moved to individual pitches. I can't imagine it's gotten much better.

[AstrosKing]

Originally Posted by Biggio509

I can only think of a couple of times where I know pitchers have learned new pitches. Early in his career Oswalt worked on a new change up in ST. I think Daryl Kyle developed a different curve at some point. That is about it I can think of. 2 guys in the early 2000's and nothing I am aware before or after. This might be more common in the minors though.

Don't forget one of the most famous instances - Mike Scott and the split-finger fastball.

Excerpt from his Wikipedia page:

The turning point in Scott's career came in 1985, when he became a student of legendary pitching coach Roger Craig. Craig taught Scott the split-finger fastball, a pitch he had made famous while coaching the pitchers of the 1984 World Series champion Detroit Tigers. Scott became an 18-game winner in 1985 and was rewarded with a new three-year deal with the Astros, valued at around two million dollars.
Scott had his most successful and controversial season in 1986, when he posted an 18-10 record with a 2.22 ERA, striking out a league-leading 306 batters. He was accused of using the illegal tactic of scuffing the baseball, but was never caught doing so. In addition, on September 25 of that season, he threw a 2-0 no-hitter against the San Francisco Giants at the Astrodome to clinch the National League West division title for the Astros

[Biggio509]

Not sure how I forgot that. Who can forget that division clinching no hitter or how Roger Craig, the Giants manager, had the ball inspected on every pitch Scott threw because they were in the same org when Scott was in the minors and he could not believe Scott had improved that much without cheating.