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Earlier versions of OOTP: General Discussions General chat about the game... |
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02-23-2012, 02:15 PM | #1 |
Minors (Rookie Ball)
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 33
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Stats vs Ratings
Hello all,
I'm a long time player of OOTP and there is one thing that has always bothered me. In a game with scouting off, say you have a batter with high ratings who should by all measures be a stud. The problem is, you are 60 games into the year, and this guy is hitting .200 and playing like he doesn't belong in the majors. His ratings (contact, power, eye) remain high with no downward movement but he continues to perform at a sub-par level. In real life, this guy would be sent down/traded/DFA'd, but in the world of OOTP is there any reason to believe that this player will not regress back to the mean? Do the game mechanics allow a player to be "cursed" and continually perform below his ratings or will the law of averages eventually kick in and have this guy start playing better? (this is all assuming his ratings stay the same the whole time) Thanks in advance for any help. -Spracks |
02-23-2012, 02:23 PM | #2 | |
Major Leagues
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 471
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02-23-2012, 03:35 PM | #3 |
All Star Starter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,366
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60 games is a pretty small sample, I wouldn't draw any conclusions from it.
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02-23-2012, 03:45 PM | #4 | |
Minors (Double A)
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 153
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Quote:
When you are working trades, are other teams constantly asking for this guy? If so, he'll probably continue to develop and his stats will eventually reflect that. If his name never comes up in trades, you have to ask what the AI knows that you don't. Actually, the more I think about it, is this really any different than real life? Am I really gaming the system that much? Personally, I'm not a sabermetrics guy. I believe in Batting Average -- particularly with Runners in Scoring Position. At the end of the day, there is just no substitute for getting wood on the ball. When my team gets owned by a below average pitcher, the last thing that will placate me is "But we drew a lot of walks". I'll even trade away a fair amount of power for BA. As such, I only tolerate slumps or down years for so long. On my teams, a player hits the ball or he gets traded. |
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02-23-2012, 11:24 PM | #5 | |
Minors (Rookie Ball)
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 33
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Quote:
-Spracks |
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02-24-2012, 07:37 AM | #6 |
All Star Starter
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,650
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Just think of this scary but real thought...
Adam Dunn still has a starting job in the MLB. |
02-24-2012, 07:59 AM | #7 |
Major Leagues
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 304
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I have found that I have had players like that and what I do is look at their vs. left and vs. right and modify where they bat in the lineup. Something that simple has really produced positive results not only for the player, but for my record!
For example, Cal Ripken Jr. was terrible for the first two months of the season. I flip flopped him in the lineup from sixth to ninth and he started to catch fire for the rest of the season. Hope this helps a little. |
02-24-2012, 08:44 AM | #8 |
Minors (Rookie Ball)
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 33
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My question has to do more with how the game uses a player's actual ratings. As far as I understand it, when the game is simulating play, a player's chance of success depends on some hidden calculation that uses his skill ratings to determine the eventual outcome. With this in mind, it would seem that the higher a player's ratings, the higher his probability of success.
Since the chance of success is based on probability, what reason does a manager have to replace a poorly performing player who has high skill ratings? Can a player in OOTP be "cursed" and, against all odds, continually perform below what his ratings would suggest? If not, what motive does an OOTP manager have to replace players who should be good by all measures of the game? The laws of probability say that this player will eventually start performing in line with his skill, unless there is something hidden in the game mechanics that would prevent it. I understand that these things happen in real life, very talented players underperform all the time, but I am interested in how the game interprets a player's ratings, not how this situation compares to real life. -Spracks Last edited by Spracks; 02-24-2012 at 08:46 AM. |
02-25-2012, 10:24 PM | #9 |
Minors (Single A)
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 51
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This topic is most frustrating when your guy supposed to be a stud on other teams but turns into a dud on yours and vise versa. It takes away from the realism no doubt. You should expect some close results. Then to kick it off other teams see high value in your guy and willing to trade for same ratings.
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02-25-2012, 11:33 PM | #10 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: with my army of orangutans
Posts: 2,943
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Jamie, I've seen you make a few posts on this subject, and I feel bad for you, because this never really happens to me. I'm not sure if this has been gone into before, but does your team play in a pitchers' ballpark? If you go into the park editor to change it, also make sure to go into the weather tab to see the wind direction and strength, as that can have an effect as well. But otherwise, it's just about dumb luck sometimes. I've had one guy hit .180 with 5 home runs for me at the midway point but finish overall at about .240 with almost 25 homers. At the same time, I had another guy go straight to the majors after I drafted him second overall and hit .220 for me in 2 seasons before I sent him down. I traded him for chump change, and this past year he's hitting .290 for his new team. Sometimes you just gotta take the lumps the sim gives you because, to put it simply, that's baseball.
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02-27-2012, 11:18 AM | #11 | |
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02-27-2012, 01:33 PM | #12 | |
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And yes in the OOTP world if i have a player slump the year that will affect him it all depends on how much you have it set it. |
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02-27-2012, 01:39 PM | #13 | |
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Location: Tampa, FL USA
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02-27-2012, 02:16 PM | #14 | |
All Star Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Morro Bay, CA
Posts: 1,257
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Quote:
One thing that affects batting averages is the opposing team, especially the pitcher. Teams with good fielders (especially shortstop & center field) can take hits away from batters. Good pitchers can minimize hits or turn them into outs. Another thing to pay attention to is a players 'intangibles,' especially hard work and intelligence. Players who don't work hard tend to under-perform - especially in the majors. Intelligent players tend to 'over-perform' beyond what you would expect. Speaking of expectations, have you paid much attention to what your player's expectations are? Maybe he wants a different place in the batting order, or perhaps play a different position, or perhaps his morale is low due to team losses, or maybe he just isn't getting enough money (or playing time). Now for the most likely, and most misunderstood, part of the whole equation... BATTING RESULTS ARE NOT JUST BASED ON A PLAYER'S RATINGS! Several years ago, I believe, Dave revealed that individual player performance is also base on 'big picture' considerations. Results are tempered by 'game considerations,' 'team considerations,' and even 'season considerations.' For example, if you put the 9 best hitters onto the same team (along with the best 5 pitchers) would that team win every game 20+ to nothing? No they wouldn't. There are mechanics in OOTP that keep game scores more or less reasonable, that keep winning percentages more or less reasonable, and season stats more or less reasonable. Another example: if you trade your player to a weak hitting team, there is a good chance that his hitting will improve because there are less players on the weak team to carry the 'averaged' hitting load. I have a lot of good hitters on my team but they largely under-perform because there are so many of them that they can't all go 4 for 5 in every game. Often when I trade a player, he shines on the new team (and haunts me for years). Season results are another example. I believe that it is impossible, regardless of how hard you try to rig it, for you to create a league where one team goes undefeated for the season. OOTPs 'averaging' algorithms will prevent this. Maybe some 'simmers' out there would like to give it a try. Other considerations are 'year-averaging.' Hitters will usually have at least one 'off-year' where their stats drop considerably, but they will come back the following year. Another is 'age.' Older players tend to have more off-years than younger players. Another thing you can do is to pay attention to a player's 'streaks.' play him when he's hot and rest him when he's cold. OOTP will display icons to show you. Also pay attention to the effect that the player has on the rest of the team. Some players are bad locker room players who bring down the whole team. I have a player on my Single-A team who has great numbers who is so intelligent that his teammates consider him arrogant and don't like playing with him. I'm monitoring his performance very closely. Hope this helps.
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I cast this question into your soul, that I might know how deep it is - Friedrich Nietzsche It often shows a fine command of language - to say nothing! - Bertrand Russell |
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02-27-2012, 02:26 PM | #15 | |
All Star Reserve
Join Date: Apr 2003
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02-27-2012, 03:14 PM | #16 | |
Hall Of Famer
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Location: Tampa, FL USA
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Quote:
For the purpose of this discussion ratings control stats. Yes, there are adjustments based on league totals and what not but a player with a 90 contact will always, on average hit better than a player with a 70 contact.
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When is good enough, good enough? |
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02-27-2012, 03:31 PM | #17 | |
All Star Reserve
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Baseball Ned Flanders stares into your soul...
Posts: 594
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Quote:
But I had a 5 POT center field prospect that EVERYBODY wanted his entire time in the minors... Problem was he never really performed in the minors... .241, .229, .264.. those were the types of seasons he was putting up during his development despite the potential ratings telling me he was the next Willie Mays and his actual ratings telling me he should have been murdering Double A pitching... But I held him to the bitter end, just because the CPU loved him and I knew he was going to make a huge splash... Well, after three full years at the ML level... he finally peaked as a 2.5 star player... 4th OF... pinch runner... defensive replacement... maybe a starter on a crummy team. I should have believed the stats and let the CPU have him for the ransom they were willing to give. Of course, he likely would have blown up for a HoF lock of a career for another team. |
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02-27-2012, 04:15 PM | #18 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: The big smoke
Posts: 15,628
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No such thing exists AFAIK.
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Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit |
02-27-2012, 04:34 PM | #19 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: The big smoke
Posts: 15,628
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Quote:
Player ratings control the result. The rate of doubles is going to be 9450/160,000. The game does not suppress or boost that rate. If player ratings get altered away from the development curve, league totals can be affected.
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Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit |
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02-27-2012, 09:34 PM | #20 | |
Minors (Double A)
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 151
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Quote:
But I have also observed that many new players, no matter how high their ratings are, struggle in their initial MLB season and need to "adjust to the competition." This is certainly observed in real life. It's not that the skills aren't there. It's more like the player needs to adjust to the increase in speed, and the low threshold for mistakes. Whether this is something Markus internally programmed, or just something I think I am seeing, who knows. Also consider that Morale exists in the game. How much of an effect it has on performance we can only guess. But if I have a guy at AAA who isn't playing well for an extended period, I move him down to AA and let them start to put up good numbers again before bringing him back to AAA. Basically I'm trying to manage his "confidence level" if it exists in any form in OOTP. It sure seems to. Last edited by DanP68; 02-27-2012 at 09:47 PM. |
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