Random Debut request

[David Watts]

Can we please get more starting pitchers added to the inaugural draft and each draft that follows? Teams need to be able to keep a few starting pitchers on their reserve rosters in case of injuries, but as things stand now, there simply aren't enough available. Sometimes even after several seasons a team is lucky to have 5 pitchers on their roster capable of starting. An injury or 2 and all of a sudden a team is forced to start middle relievers with stamina ratings of 3 or less.

[BabyLemonade]

Agreed...Plus like it is now the 1st yr draft is very predictable.With not so many pitchers(and so good many hitters) if you draft 2 SP in the first two rounds you have a definite advantage over the AI..

[David Watts]

Last night I started a league in 1916 and simmed to the start of the 1921 season. After 5 seasons, most teams still were having a hard time completing a 5 man rotation. Only a few teams had a starting pitcher on a minor league roster. I'm not asking for teams to be stacked, as that would create problems of its own, but replacement players are needed.

[kev24fan]

Well back then it was not a 5 man rotation. A 4 man rotation was used till 1989 I know. At least my A's used a 4 man rotation then.

I normally start my seasons in 1901 and they al ways use a 4 man rotation.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by kev24fan

Well back then it was not a 5 man rotation. A 4 man rotation was used till 1989 I know. At least my A's used a 4 man rotation then.

I normally start my seasons in 1901 and they al ways use a 4 man rotation.

Ah, I challenge you to look back at baseball during the early years and show me the teams that were using strict 4 man rotations. Good luck. You aren't going to find many teams that had 4 guys all starting 38 games.

I have come to the conclusion that using a 5 man rotation combined with "Always start the highest rested" is OOTP's best available method of capturing the way pitching staffs were handled throughout history. This is why I have been pushing so hard for Markus to allow us to self determine the size of pitching staffs league wide, separate from stamina and use of reliever choices.

When using Random Debut, teams don't have enough starting pitchers no matter when the league is started. Even using 4 man rotations, if teams only have 4-5 starters available, what happens when an injury occurs?

[kev24fan]

True, David! I never really paid to much attention to it.

[The Game]

Originally Posted by David Watts

Ah, I challenge you to look back at baseball during the early years and show me the teams that were using strict 4 man rotations. Good luck. You aren't going to find many teams that had 4 guys all starting 38 games.

I have come to the conclusion that using a 5 man rotation combined with "Always start the highest rested" is OOTP's best available method of capturing the way pitching staffs were handled throughout history. This is why I have been pushing so hard for Markus to allow us to self determine the size of pitching staffs league wide, separate from stamina and use of reliever choices.

When using Random Debut, teams don't have enough starting pitchers no matter when the league is started. Even using 4 man rotations, if teams only have 4-5 starters available, what happens when an injury occurs?

Not disagreeing with you since every league is different. I can only comment of my league. I have a RD 1901 league I have 8 pitchers on my ML roster and 4 more at AAA Charlotte as of 1902. I didn't even draft a pitcher after 1901. They hardly used and MR until the 1950's so as long as you have 6-7 pitchers on your staff the MR will fill in for injuries.
In my 1901 Rd. I had a 4 man of Bob Gibson, Mark Buerhle, Floyd Bannister and Old Hoss Radbourn. all 4 were injured at some point. My MR and the 4 pitchers at AAA also filled in. I am GM only. Going forward I can see pitching become an issue, there were only 16 pitchers in the draft (5 rounds). Don't know who retired.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by The Game

Not disagreeing with you since every league is different. I can only comment of my league. I have a RD 1901 league I have 8 pitchers on my ML roster and 4 more at AAA Charlotte as of 1902. I didn't even draft a pitcher after 1901. They hardly used and MR until the 1950's so as long as you have 6-7 pitchers on your staff the MR will fill in for injuries.
In my 1901 Rd. I had a 4 man of Bob Gibson, Mark Buerhle, Floyd Bannister and Old Hoss Radbourn. all 4 were injured at some point. My MR and the 4 pitchers at AAA also filled in. I am GM only. Going forward I can see pitching become an issue, there were only 16 pitchers in the draft (5 rounds). Don't know who retired.

Maybe it is just luck of the draw, but I have started several leagues and hardly ever see teams with starting pitchers to spare. Even when I download, sim, erase history and hold an inaugural draft several years later. Thinking what I might do is start in 76, but delete 8 teams and 2 divisions and go with a 16 team format. This should give me somewhere between 35 to 40 extras starting pitchers.

[VanillaGorilla]

I have had leagues stacked with big pitching names early on (the first random debut HOF thread was one such league). My current league is similar to what you describe having in your's, pitching was at a super high premium for a long time. This is much more common.

This will work itself out. From what I have observed, the way players are assigned ages in the inaugural RD draft does not result in an age distribution that represents that of contemporary baseball. You don't get as many 30 something year-old pitchers that are solid MLBers when you start a league using RD.

It will take a few years to get to that point, typically. I don't see any plausible way to change this using the tools currently available in OOTP. There have been a couple of cool concepts bounced around on the forum that, if they were added to the game, could make it doable for the program to generate an initial pool with an established age distribution. But, this is a long way off, as it is a hydra battle even in the conceptual stage.

The problem is that using real players based on real stats, most players didn't play into their thirties. The good ones did, but most did not.

And if you had all of the good players that are generated in an inaugural RD draft be 30 somethings, well, there would a lot to dislike about that!

The easiest way to solve this is to run the league for 5, 10, or 20 years, and erase the history. The drawback, of course, is that you are burning through a significant segment of the players and if you are wanting to see that ONE player play, he may have been part of the the pre-league establishment sim throughs. After 20 years you will have a semblance of stability between pitchers and hitters, but you will always have some areas of the league that are stacked, and some areas wanting. But nothing to the degree that is seen in the first few years of a RD league.

[VanillaGorilla]

ADD: On thing to take into consideration when playing in an environment like the one you describe: Remember how OOTP normalizes output. This is but casual observation on my part, but maybe you can see it happen also in your league and verify what I THINK I saw, and that is that not only are the pitcher's ratings and performance relative to the talent of the other pitchers in the league, but so are the stamina numbers...I THINK.

When I had a dearth of pitching early in my league that I used high injury setting and pitchers got hurt and guys with 1 stamina were plugged in, the guys with 1 stamina were going deeper into games than a 1 stamina would be expected to go if every staff had 5 15/20 stamina guys. Just as a 10/20 stuff pitcher has better than average stuff if the rest of the league averages 8, but has lousy stuff if the rest of the league averages 15, I BELIEVE the same principle holds for stamina ratings, also.

I suppose I could edit all pitchers to a 1 stamina and see how deep into games starters go to see for sure, but at the moment I am not, so all I can offer you here is vague recollection and speculation...for whatever that is worth.....Good Luck!

[The Game]

Granted my amount of draft is small at 5 rounds but there are only 2 SP n the Ammy draft after the 1902 season. Ubaldo Jimenez and some guy i have never heard of. Maybe 10 MR. Think I am gonna have to up my draft for a season or 2. I now have a total of 17 pitchers in my system. By the way this draft is weak overall, only a handful of All Stars and no HOFers.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by VanillaGorilla

ADD: On thing to take into consideration when playing in an environment like the one you describe: Remember how OOTP normalizes output. This is but casual observation on my part, but maybe you can see it happen also in your league and verify what I THINK I saw, and that is that not only are the pitcher's ratings and performance relative to the talent of the other pitchers in the league, but so are the stamina numbers...I THINK.

When I had a dearth of pitching early in my league that I used high injury setting and pitchers got hurt and guys with 1 stamina were plugged in, the guys with 1 stamina were going deeper into games than a 1 stamina would be expected to go if every staff had 5 15/20 stamina guys. Just as a 10/20 stuff pitcher has better than average stuff if the rest of the league averages 8, but has lousy stuff if the rest of the league averages 15, I BELIEVE the same principle holds for stamina ratings, also.

I suppose I could edit all pitchers to a 1 stamina and see how deep into games starters go to see for sure, but at the moment I am not, so all I can offer you here is vague recollection and speculation...for whatever that is worth.....Good Luck!

I will watch for this and see how mine do. If I can at least get 5 innings, I can live with it.

[David Watts]

Created a new random debut league tonight and had completely different results. This time I used 1976 as my starting format. I deleted 2 divisions and 8 teams. I now have a 16 team league, 2 subleagues, 1 division setup. Using a 132 game schedule with interleague play. With the shorter schedule, I am using 4 man rotations. I'm glad to report that every team in my league has spare starting pitching.

[kev24fan]

When you set up your new league did you select " NEW HISTORICAL GAME" then edited the setup from there. I wished you could start with the RD and have all players starting in there 20's. I hate when just starting out and a great like Ruth, Cobb, Mayes or some other superstar imports in their 40's. Then you do not get to have them in your league long.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by kev24fan

When you set up your new league did you select " NEW HISTORICAL GAME" then edited the setup from there. I wished you could start with the RD and have all players starting in there 20's. I hate when just starting out and a great like Ruth, Cobb, Mayes or some other superstar imports in their 40's. Then you do not get to have them in your league long.

Yeah that does suck, but I think the alternative would be worse. Have to have some players retire to make room for the youngsters. Pete Rose imported in his 40's for this league. Not happy with that, but oh well.

I created a new historical game and made my edits after creation.

[VanillaGorilla]

Originally Posted by David Watts

Created a new random debut league tonight and had completely different results. This time I used 1976 as my starting format. I deleted 2 divisions and 8 teams. I now have a 16 team league, 2 subleagues, 1 division setup. Using a 132 game schedule with interleague play. With the shorter schedule, I am using 4 man rotations. I'm glad to report that every team in my league has spare starting pitching.

What a great idea that was! Kudos!

[Pdubya64]

If you want to use the original league format for whatever reason, the only way I have found to fix the issue you stated is bump up the # of rounds of players that OOTP generates, that way your sample size is large enough to allow all teams the get the starting pitchers they must have.

Be forewarned- balancing just how many extra rounds to add can be a delicate business. But it does work.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Pdubya64

If you want to use the original league format for whatever reason, the only way I have found to fix the issue you stated is bump up the # of rounds of players that OOTP generates, that way your sample size is large enough to allow all teams the get the starting pitchers they must have.

Be forewarned- balancing just how many extra rounds to add can be a delicate business. But it does work.

I don't think what you've suggested is possible when using random debut. A set number of players are imported when you create the league. Future drafts can be as large as one wants.

[Pdubya64]

Originally Posted by David Watts

I don't think what you've suggested is possible when using random debut. A set number of players are imported when you create the league. Future drafts can be as large as one wants.

Ah... well, that's a bummer. I haven't made use of random debut yet- it sounds cool. Good luck.