Batting order

[maxkeitt]

How do you like to do your batting orders?

Do you base it on a player's ratings? His stats?

[Xavier12]

A big thing I try to do is keep my power hitters seperated in the lineup if they have poor vision. I hate getting the people on base and then get back to back strikeouts.

[Déjà Bru]

Here's what I use, from my notes:

Lineup Procedure

Pos Characteristics
1 Best combination of speed and eye
2 Best combination of contact and eye
3 Best combination of contact, power, and eye
4 Best power
5 Next best power
6 Next best power
7 Next best contact
8 Next best contact
9 Weakest hitter of all

Platooning
Platoon lefty and righty if both are approximately equal in the field, equal in power, and show offsetting strengths and weaknesses vs. right-handed and left-handed pitching.

Positions in the Lineup

#1 The first player in the batting order is the leadoff hitter. Generally, the leadoff batter is the fastest baserunner on the team because he bats more often than anyone else in the lineup, and to have baserunners when the later, more powerful hitters come to bat, his need for a high on base percentage (OBP) exceeds that of the other lineup spots. Speed is not essential, as is shown by Wade Boggs. Once on base, his main goal is to advance around the bases as quickly as possible and then to score. Because leadoff hitters are selected primarily for their speed and ability to reach base, they are typically not power hitters. Another important role for the leadoff man is to reveal the pitcher's ability and to "wear him out" by forcing him to throw as many pitches as possible.

#2 The second batter, most often just referred to as in the two-hole, is usually a contact hitter with the ability to bunt or get a hit. His main goal is to move the leadoff man into scoring position. Often, these hitters are fairly quick, competent baserunners and tend to avoid grounding into double plays. Managers often like to have a left-handed hitter bat second because of the potential gap in the infield defense caused by the first baseman holding the leadoff batter.

#3 The third batter, in the three-hole, is generally the best all-around hitter on the team, often hitting for a high batting average but not necessarily very fast. Part of his job is to reach base for the cleanup hitter, and part of it is to help drive in baserunners himself. Third-place hitters are best known for "keeping the inning alive". However in recent years, some managers have tended to put their best slugger in this position. Typically the greatest hitters for a combination of power and OBP on their teams bat third, as is shown by the use of such hitters as Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, Albert Pujols, Josh Hamilton, and Hank Aaron in this position in the lineup.

#4 The fourth player in the batting order is known as the cleanup hitter, and is almost always one of the best hitters on the team, often the one with the most power. Baseball managers tend to place hitters who are most likely to reach base ahead of the clean-up man, so that the fourth batter can "clean" the bases by driving these baserunners home to score runs. His main goal is to drive in runs, although he is expected to score runs as well. In fact, the fourth spot in the order has the luxury of being somewhat "protected" from bad situations early in the game: the batter only rarely faces a spot with two outs and no baserunners in the first time through the order—possible if, for example, one of the first three batters hits a home run and the other two make outs. If nobody gets on base, the cleanup hitter has a chance to start a rally in the second inning by being the first batter, with zero outs. However, hitting cleanup also requires an exceptional level of talent, and the ability to deliver big hits in important situations (such as the bases loaded with two out). The theory behind the cleanup hitter concept is that at the beginning of the game, the first three batters will reach base with a single-base hit, walk, or equivalent, thereby loading the bases, and enabling the cleanup hitter a chance to hit a grand slam.

#5, #6 The fifth and sixth (and sometimes seventh) batters have traditionally been RBI men, with the main goal of driving runners home, especially with sacrifice flies. Modern sabermetric baseball theory suggests that even these batters should have high on-base percentages, though this approach has not been universally adopted. The fifth batter is usually a team's second-best power hitter, and his purpose is often to "protect" the clean-up hitter in the batting order. He is expected to pose enough of a threat that the opposing team refrains from intentionally walking the clean-up hitter in potential scoring situations.

#7, #8 The seventh and eighth batters are often not as powerful as the earlier batters, and do not have as high a batting average. They are still expected to produce (as is the case for any regular starter), but they have less pressure in those spots. The main pressure on the eighth hitter comes when there are two outs: in this case, he must battle the pitcher to get on base so that the ninth hitter can come up. That way, even if the ninth hitter gets out, the top of the order comes up next. The eighth batter is often a good contact hitter, and can be used as a back-up #2 hitter. In leagues without designated hitters (DHs), the catcher often bats eighth, as they are often employed for their defensive skills and handling of the pitching staff, and tend to have a relatively low batting average. However, this is by no means always the case. #8 hitters are sometimes intentionally walked to get to the pitcher's spot in the #9 hole.

#9 The ninth batter is often like the second leadoff. Nine-hitters tend to be fast, and have a decent on base percentage like the leadoff hitter. In leagues where the DH rule is not in effect, the starting pitcher almost always fills the ninth spot, although relief pitchers may occupy a different spot due to a double switch. If there is a man on first or second base with fewer than two outs when the ninth hitter is up, he almost always bunts. However, a notable alternative exists to this, in which the pitcher or weakest hitter actually bats in the 8th slot, and another player with decent OBP and speed bats in the 9th slot, thus creating a kind of second leadoff hitter, at the bottom of the lineup, that loops to the top of the order afterwards. This has been used sparingly in the major leagues, but was notably employed by St. Louis Cardinals manager Tony La Russa in the second half of the 1998 baseball season, and again in August 2007 and in 2008, and by Milwaukee Brewers manager Ned Yost in 2008. And in the last part of the '09 season Pirates manager John Russell also used it.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Here's what I use, from my notes:

Perfect! If this could just be stickied, we would save 3-4 threads per year on this frequently asked question.

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by Orcin

Perfect! If this could just be stickied, we would save 3-4 threads per year on this frequently asked question.

Unlikely, which is why I keep my notes handy. But thanks.

[ELDoro]

I have recently tinkered around with the way I create my lineup in both my solo and online leagues.

I've gone from the traditional way of making lineups. (ex: speed up top, best hitter #3, best power #4, ect) to more of a sabermetric way and I have seen good results although still a pretty small sample size. I saw my best hitter hit 40+ HRs when players of the same ratings were continuely topping out at around 30 for me over recent years in a particular league.

Basically from studies way over my head the importance of "not making an out" should come from these batting order slots in this order:

#1, #4, #2, #5, #3

The #2 and #4 hitters come up with men on base more often than any other slots.

So I have started to put my best overall hitter in the #2 slot compared to where I use to put him in the #3 slot. I've started to put my 2nd best overall hitter in the #4 slot. #1 I put my best OBP guy thats left and with #3 I put a decent overall hitter with good contact.

I put good base stealers in front of singles guys at the bottom of my order. Why? because you don't need someone at the top of the lineup to steal a base when you have your guys who are more likely to hit doubles, triples, and homeruns hitting directly behind them.

I will say one question I have with this is that these tendencies are proven to be true using lineups from real MLB games that often are more traditional. So if I use a sabermetric lineup are the outcome bases still going to be accurate?

*I will also mention that I have been using platoon players more and more. Finding cheap player that can hit either LHP or RHP exceptionally well but struggle against the other handed pitcher. I believe I can find 2 of these players (one to hit LHP and the other to hit RHP) for cheaper than one big bat that hits both well.

*I also bat my pitcher 8th. I have an average hitter with great speed bat 9th (his defense ratings at SS is the real reason he is in the starting lineup). With my set of platoon players to come off the bench I feel I want that pitcher's slot to come up sooner to get the platoon bats in the game instead of praying my weakest hitter doesn't get an out just to bring in that better bat off the bench.

[rpriske]

I am with ELDoro. It has been mathematically proven that the #3 spot is highly over-rated, yet people keep putting their best hitters there.

I was overjoyed when the Jays finally moved Bautista to the #2 spot.

[ELDoro]

Originally Posted by rpriske

I am with ELDoro. It has been mathematically proven that the #3 spot is highly over-rated, yet people keep putting their best hitters there.

I was overjoyed when the Jays finally moved Bautista to the #2 spot.

I would love Dusty Baker to bat Votto #2 BUT I think we all know Dusty Baker would never go for that.

[ihatenames]

Originally Posted by ELDoro

So I have started to put my best overall hitter in the #2 slot compared to where I use to put him in the #3 slot. I've started to put my 2nd best overall hitter in the #4 slot. #1 I put my best OBP guy thats left and with #3 I put a decent overall hitter with good contact.

I put good base stealers in front of singles guys at the bottom of my order. Why? because you don't need someone at the top of the lineup to steal a base when you have your guys who are more likely to hit doubles, triples, and homeruns hitting directly behind them.

I will say one question I have with this is that these tendencies are proven to be true using lineups from real MLB games that often are more traditional. So if I use a sabermetric lineup are the outcome bases still going to be accurate?

*I will also mention that I have been using platoon players more and more. Finding cheap player that can hit either LHP or RHP exceptionally well but struggle against the other handed pitcher. I believe I can find 2 of these players (one to hit LHP and the other to hit RHP) for cheaper than one big bat that hits both well.

*I also bat my pitcher 8th. I have an average hitter with great speed bat 9th (his defense ratings at SS is the real reason he is in the starting lineup). With my set of platoon players to come off the bench I feel I want that pitcher's slot to come up sooner to get the platoon bats in the game instead of praying my weakest hitter doesn't get an out just to bring in that better bat off the bench.

I also bat my best overall hitter second. My reasoning is this: The higher the hitter bats in the order the more at bats he'll have over the season. So I like to move my best hitter up one just to get a few more at bats.

For leadoff I don't worry about speed so much. I typically bat my highest OBP who is not my best overall hitter #1. That way I maximize how often my best hitter has someone on base. Then hopefully I have those two guys on a good deal for my best power guys hitting 3 and 4.

Other than that I keep the order pretty traditional. I do use a lot of platoons for lefties who struggle against lefties. I try to have one right handed guy on the bench who destroys lefties.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by ELDoro

I would love Dusty Baker to bat Votto #2 BUT I think we all know Dusty Baker would never go for that.

Anybody would be a better option than Cozart. Cozart needs to be 7th or 8th, although he has been hitting better lately.

[The Wolf]

Best lineup advice I've ever seen:

Optimizing Your Lineup By The Book - Beyond the Box Score

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/201...-shouldnt-they

[ELDoro]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Best lineup advice I've ever seen:

Optimizing Your Lineup By The Book - Beyond the Box Score

The Definitive Sabermetric Guide to Managing - Beyond the Box Score

I actually just ordered "The Book" a few days ago. Can't wait for its delivery!

[rpriske]

Here is a tool to optimize line-ups, based on The Book.

Lineup Analysis

I heartily endorse The Book... it is chock full of great insights!

[Cowboys3356]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Best lineup advice I've ever seen:

Optimizing Your Lineup By The Book - Beyond the Box Score

The Definitive Sabermetric Guide to Managing - Beyond the Box Score

I agree completely, this is the method I use and I think it best reflects the current strategy being used in the majors (yes there are exceptions). The advice posted by Déjà Bru is also excellent, just a little more "old school" and more reflective of the early 60s-70s-80s-90s-00s.

[The Wolf]

From http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/201...-shouldnt-they

Standard lineup

1. Speedy guy who can hopefully get on base
2. Good bat handler
3. Best hitter
4. Best power hitter
5. Second best (contact) hitter
6. Best remaining power hitter
7. 7th best hitter
8. 8th best hitter
9. 9th best hitter

Sabermetrically optimized lineup

1. One of the three best hitters (high OBP)
2. One of the three best hitters
3. 5th best hitter
4. One of the three best hitters (high SLG)
5. 4th best hitter
6. 6th best hitter
7. 7th best hitter
8. 8th best hitter (or pitcher if NL)
9. 9th best hitter (or 8th best hitter if NL)

"It is generally recognized that the optimized lineup over a full season would score five to fifteen runs more than the standard lineup."

[Tyler87898]

Originally Posted by rpriske

Here is a tool to optimize line-ups, based on The Book.

Lineup Analysis

I heartily endorse The Book... it is chock full of great insights!

What are the differences between the 1989-2002 model and the 1959-2004 model?

[ELDoro]

Originally Posted by rpriske

Here is a tool to optimize line-ups, based on The Book.

Lineup Analysis

I heartily endorse The Book... it is chock full of great insights!

I think I'm gunna use that tool. Great find!

[mattb_222]

This is good stuff. I've been idiotically placing my best hitter 3rd. No more!

[TribeFanInNC]

Good summary provided by The Wolf.

Just as a big picture counter-point I will note:
a) 5-15 runs more is only like 1-2% more. So yes, it is more. But this is maybe 1 win. Maybe not 1 win. The overall theory I've read is that lineup order really has little to no significance whatsoever.
b) The theme that the number 2 hitter is more important than originally thought seems to ring true.

Personally, I think the model of the really late-90s Indians really works well IMO. Basically, they had Lofton, Vizquel, and Alomar at the top with several sluggers behind them. The fast good hitters (okay, Vizquel was more like fast average) at the top provided a lot of run scoring opportunities eventhough Robbie Alomar was not a typical 3-hole hitter. I've used this in OOTP too with success. Their current model with Bourn, Cabrera, and Kipnis is not unlike this (though that is more out of necessity I think than plan).

[ELDoro]

Originally Posted by TribeFanInNC

Good summary provided by The Wolf.

Just as a big picture counter-point I will note:
a) 5-15 runs more is only like 1-2% more. So yes, it is more. But this is maybe 1 win. Maybe not 1 win. The overall theory I've read is that lineup order really has little to no significance whatsoever.
b) The theme that the number 2 hitter is more important than originally thought seems to ring true.

Personally, I think the model of the really late-90s Indians really works well IMO. Basically, they had Lofton, Vizquel, and Alomar at the top with several sluggers behind them. The fast good hitters (okay, Vizquel was more like fast average) at the top provided a lot of run scoring opportunities eventhough Robbie Alomar was not a typical 3-hole hitter. I've used this in OOTP too with success. Their current model with Bourn, Cabrera, and Kipnis is not unlike this (though that is more out of necessity I think than plan).

That Indians teams also had about 3-4 hitters who would have been the best hitter on most teams Alomar, Ramirez, Thome, Belle