Thinking the AI substitution logic still needs work

[beorn]

Latest example:

Leading 8-1 in the 8th inning. AI sends up a pinch hitter to bat for my good field no hit second baseman. Then puts the pinch hitter at 3B and moves my weak gloved 3B to 2B.

The relevant strategy setting: pinch hit for position players for innings 7&8 leading by 4+ runs: slider all the way to never.

To be clear, this is a double error on the AI, using a pinch hitter with that strategy setting, and moving the weak 3B to 2B.

I realize this only matters to people who don't play out their games, but in online play, it really makes a difference.

[The Wolf]

Yes, it still needs work. There are other issues as well.

[dcpcarmona]

yes, still much work needed in this area IMO

[RchW]

Originally Posted by beorn

I realize this only matters to people who don't play out their games, but in online play, it really makes a difference.

I do both and whether it's seeing it in a game or in a box score the annoyance remains.

[SteveP]

One possibility (and only that, because it's difficult to know):

Whenever the AI detects a blow-out game in late innings (a lead of 7+ runs), it may use bench players. In that situation, any strategies settings are irrelevant.

Of course, the way the AI handles field positioning when substitutions occur is a a continuing problem. Markus insists (AFAIK) that the AI tries to optimize defense, so maybe that is difficult to program.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by SteveP

Markus insists (AFAIK) that the AI tries to optimize defense, so maybe that is difficult to program.

It might try, but it seems to fail. I've recently been playing out all my games (and I doubt my substitution logic is all that much better than the AI's lol), so I haven't seen it, but IIRC the issue of the AI using inappropriate players for the situation is still there. I don't know if this has been improved, but in the past it would, for example, if the SS was removed from the game put say a backup 2B with no SS rating there, instead of shifting the current 2B (with a reasonable SS rating) over and bringing in the backup at 2B.

[SteveP]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

It might try, but it seems to fail. I've recently been playing out all my games (and I doubt my substitution logic is all that much better than the AI's lol), so I haven't seen it, but IIRC the issue of the AI using inappropriate players for the situation is still there. I don't know if this has been improved, but in the past it would, for example, if the SS was removed from the game put say a backup 2B with no SS rating there, instead of shifting the current 2B (with a reasonable SS rating) over and bringing in the backup at 2B.

I generally watch all my games getting played, and when the AI screws up positioning for either team, I fix it (including for the other team). It's not optimal and doesn't solve the problem for people who only sim or play on-line. I just don't know what the prospects are for getting the AI to do this better on it's own.

[beorn]

Originally Posted by SteveP

One possibility (and only that, because it's difficult to know):

Whenever the AI detects a blow-out game in late innings (a lead of 7+ runs), it may use bench players. In that situation, any strategies settings are irrelevant.

That would explain what I saw, and I prefer that explanation to the alternative -- that the "never" setting is just generally being ignored.

Still, it makes me wonder whether the human manager should be able to set his own blowout setting. Early in the season, I'm glad to minimize injuries to regulars, even at the risk of a rare comeback. So 7th inning, up by 6, I might well let the AI bring in subs... Late in the season, playing key games against teams better than me, I'd be setting that bar VERY high, like 9th inning, up by 12 -- especially knowing that it might well be the good gloves that get pulled.

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

if the SS was removed from the game put say a backup 2B with no SS rating there, instead of shifting the current 2B (with a reasonable SS rating) over and bringing in the backup at 2B.

Yes, I see this too.

Related to this (and especially frustrating in an online league), I see no way around this for starting lineup substitutions for tired players.

Starting 2B is also a pretty good shortstop. The backup infielder is a terrible shortstop but a good 2B. When the shortstop is tired, I know of no way to set it so that the starting 2B moves over to ss.

However, I've always assumed that that would be MUCH more difficult to program.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by beorn

However, I've always assumed that that would be MUCH more difficult to program.

I'm guessing that it is.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by SteveP

Markus insists (AFAIK) that the AI tries to optimize defense, so maybe that is difficult to program.

Maybe I'm taking this out of context but Markus has posted in a couple of rants I've made about defensive issues that the AI looks for the best batting lineup. I've challenged this because real life MLB lineups are absolutely not optimized for batting but much more for defense, with some allowance for big contracts (Dan Uggla).

It seems to me that the issue discussed here is no different than the AI starting lineup construction including overuse of platoons and switching of positions (with all due respect to Tampa Bay) that doesn't generally happen IRL. Part of the problem is that AI teams using the "best batting" paradigm will likely not have good defensive players on the bench. This causes position shuffling when subs are used in OOTP.

IRL MLB but especially the NL if you are not a good hitter you better be replacement level or better defense if you want a job. Again there may be exceptions but bad hitting bad fielding do not a bench player make.

[SteveP]

Originally Posted by RchW

Maybe I'm taking this out of context but Markus has posted in a couple of rants I've made about defensive issues that the AI looks for the best batting lineup. I've challenged this because real life MLB lineups are absolutely not optimized for batting but much more for defense, with some allowance for big contracts (Dan Uggla).

This may need some clarification:

I agree with Markus that the AI generally looks for the best offensive combination. The question at hand is this: are those guys getting the best defensive positioning possible. I think it's fair to say that when the AI sets lineup and depth chart decisions, it does a pretty good job. The problem is that whenever there is any kind of substitution -- platooning, fatigue, injury, etc -- the AI's ability to optimize defense for the new lineup, much less to look at the bench for better defense, isn't nearly as good.

The fact that the AI does sometimes shift people around as a result of substitutions suggests that there is a subroutine that looks at defense and tries to make it better (except for fatigue related substitutions), but it doesn't work all that well. But possibly it's as good as we are going to get.

[VanillaGorilla]

Originally Posted by SteveP

But possibly it's as good as we are going to get.

I will not resign myself to this opinion.

As many have pointed out in many threads, OOTP is not EA.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by SteveP

This may need some clarification:

I agree with Markus that the AI generally looks for the best offensive combination. The question at hand is this: are those guys getting the best defensive positioning possible. I think it's fair to say that when the AI sets lineup and depth chart decisions, it does a pretty good job. The problem is that whenever there is any kind of substitution -- platooning, fatigue, injury, etc -- the AI's ability to optimize defense for the new lineup, much less to look at the bench for better defense, isn't nearly as good.

The fact that the AI does sometimes shift people around as a result of substitutions suggests that there is a subroutine that looks at defense and tries to make it better (except for fatigue related substitutions), but it doesn't work all that well. But possibly it's as good as we are going to get.

Not sure I agree with either of the bold. But we'd have to look at boxscores to see if the movement was to a better defensive position. I'd be happy to be wrong.

OOTP v14 is better than v13 but the AI often does not follow any accepted baseball logic when setting lineups. It's very common to see a superior defensive SS moved to 1B or 3B to accommodate a better hitting but much poorer defensive SS. This can cascade through lineups pushing a 3B to 2B and even an OF to 3B if he has a rating. The result is often very poor team defense. This happens, often multiple times, after a trade a promotion or a return from injury.

I recently picked up a GG capable CF who had been moved to 3B in this fashion. The resulting drop in his ratings made him easy to trade for. I plead guilty of taking advantage of bad AI.

[endgame]

Substitutions and the resulting multi-positional problems they create remain one of the areas I'm most adamant about improving. However, I've been told my 'position' requires too many permutations and would slow the game unduly. The answer I'm still waiting for is how much would it slow the game. Most of us, I think, would be more than willing to suffer a minute or two delay if it meant the I in AI was more prevalent.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by endgame

Substitutions and the resulting multi-positional problems they create remain one of the areas I'm most adamant about improving. However, I've been told my 'position' requires too many permutations and would slow the game unduly. The answer I'm still waiting for is how much would it slow the game. Most of us, I think, would be more than willing to suffer a minute or two delay if it meant the I in AI was more prevalent.

It could be solved if the default concept was not better offense. The AI should acquire players for defensive purposes. The criteria for the AI should be NOT to move players from their best position.

I've posted this before. In real life baseball if your SS gets injured you replace him with the next best SS. If he is on the 25-man or in the minors or as a FA, that's what you do. In OOTP the AI moves the best batter who has a SS rating into that position and moves everyone else from likely their best position to a secondary position.

[pstrickert]

Originally Posted by endgame

Substitutions and the resulting multi-positional problems they create remain one of the areas I'm most adamant about improving. However, I've been told my 'position' requires too many permutations and would slow the game unduly. The answer I'm still waiting for is how much would it slow the game. Most of us, I think, would be more than willing to suffer a minute or two delay if it meant the I in AI was more prevalent.

s n o i t a t u m r e p

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by RchW

I've posted this before. In real life baseball if your SS gets injured you replace him with the next best SS. If he is on the 25-man or in the minors or as a FA, that's what you do. In OOTP the AI moves the best batter who has a SS rating into that position and moves everyone else from likely their best position to a secondary position.

Please keep on posting it until Markus finally gets it.

[Gil Thorp]

Originally Posted by SteveP

but it doesn't work all that well. But possibly it's as good as we are going to get.

Heck yeah. Why waste time trying to fix a fundamental flaw in the game when there's all those new features that have to be worked on?

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Gil Thorp

Heck yeah. Why waste time trying to fix a fundamental flaw in the game when there's all those new features that have to be worked on?

You just pointed out the only real flaw in OOTP.

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by RchW

It could be solved if the default concept was not better offense. The AI should acquire players for defensive purposes. The criteria for the AI should be NOT to move players from their best position.

I've posted this before. In real life baseball if your SS gets injured you replace him with the next best SS. If he is on the 25-man or in the minors or as a FA, that's what you do. In OOTP the AI moves the best batter who has a SS rating into that position and moves everyone else from likely their best position to a secondary position.

I do disagree here. I would use the player who is the best overall player at SS, which includes offense and defense. If I have an average hitter with a 8/20 rating at SS, I'd rather use him than the weak hitter who is a 11/20. And that's what the AI does when setting up rosters & depth charts and lineups.

By the way, once a depth chart is selected, it runs an optimization process for defense using the 8/9 starters, so you will not see an instance where you have a player who is 8 at SS and 10 at 2B play at SS when there is a player at 2B who is a 10 at SS and 7 at 2B, for example. The game goes through many different combinations and take that once which is the best in defensive value, with different positions weighted differently of course.

Regarding in-game substitutions, that is another matter, and I agree that the AI could need some improvements here (however it works well 99.5% of the time, let's not forget this). I am currently working on that, and hopefully the upcoming patch will improve this area.