Developing a third pitch

[Siavash]

I have searched the forum and read basically every thread about pitchers developing a new pitch and i still haven't found an answer on what's the chance of a pitcher developing a new pitch. I know it's random i just need to know how often and under what circumstances (if any) it happens. I play stat only and a high number of starters in my high school feeder league have only two pitches, especially the good ones. So how much of a risk is it two draft one of them and hope he develops a new pitch?

[SodoMojo]

In my experience it's rare and it's random. That's likely all the info you'll get.

I wouldn't make any plans on a pitcher developing a new pitch.

Logic says have a pitcher starting in the minors to try and develop one but I wouldn't hold my breath.

I've had it happen once in 10 seasons with one of my MR. He was a setup guy...had pitched well in that role for 3 plus years...then all of a sudden at age 25 or so he developed a changeup and ended up being a solid starter for 7 seasons now. No rhyme or reason.

[fsclb66]

I don't know the exact chance but it's pretty rare I wouldn't advise drafting anyone based on the hope that they develop a third pitch

[RchW]

Originally Posted by fsclb66

I don't know the exact chance but it's pretty rare I wouldn't advise drafting anyone based on the hope that they develop a third pitch

Is there any difference between not having a third pitch at all and having a bad one or two ie 1/1 out of 5.

[endgame]

Originally Posted by RchW

Is there any difference between not having a third pitch at all and having a bad one or two ie 1/1 out of 5.

There is a grey area wherein the third pitch will allow the pitcher to start, if he only had the two to begin with. But, generally, with multiple pitches in the arsenal, if his stamina supports it, he'll be able to start. But I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.

Sidenote: I'm still holding on to, perhaps, a myth I came to believe in long ago in the early versions. I still notice, pitches aside, that a guy with three fairly balanced ratings in stuff, movement, and control (maybe one's a tad better than the others) but basically a 50/50/50 guy, will tend to have a lot more success than one who excels in just one area alone. I haven't run a test, but I sure see these guys doing very well on a regular basis. So those 'balanced' ratings coupled with a pitch repertoire of at least average ratings and number make me believe I've a solid starter. FWIW

[sandman2575]

Does anyone else feel that pitchers developing a new pitch is a little *too rare* in OOTP? (Not just RPs developing a 3rd pitch, but in general.)

Not saying it should happen frequently. But seems to me it shouldn't be quite so extraordinarily rare, especially with young pitchers developing in the minors, or pitchers coming out of spring training.

I for one would like to see this more often.

[ezpkns34]

I agree it's probably too rare, but I also think certain factors should be taken into account when a pitcher learns a new pitch (such as Intelligence, Work Ethic, & various pitch ratings so that a flamethrower with no control wouldn't be learning a curveball and a lazy idiot isn't picking up new pitchers either)

Just my .02

[awick]

While I too feel like it would be nice to help (whatever that means) some of my prospects develop a third pitch, in my fictional games I have never seen there to be a real shortage of starting pitchers. Sure, I would like to develop more starters and have better control of what comes through my minor league system -- but is that realistic? Is it needed?

My games evolve just fine as is. I imagine the 2-pitch pitchers that I have starting in the low minors are trying to develop new pitches, but that their efforts usually fall short in terms of what would be effective at the major league level.

Everyone is always looking for more good big league starting pitchers. That's true in reality and in my ootp universes. It seems about right to me.

[sandman2575]

Originally Posted by ezpkns34

I agree it's probably too rare, but I also think certain factors should be taken into account when a pitcher learns a new pitch (such as Intelligence, Work Ethic, & various pitch ratings so that a flamethrower with no control wouldn't be learning a curveball and a lazy idiot isn't picking up new pitchers either)

Just my .02

Agree 100%. Also, quality and type of pitching coaches should be a factor, in terms of likelihood that a young pitcher develops a new pitch. And maybe too, presence of aces/veterans on your pitching staff. As is well known, pitchers 'talk shop' with each other all the time. They pass on tips and advice. There's a reason certain pitches become 'fashionable' in different decades, after all.

[majesty95]

I don't know how needed it is in game ( almost always play historical leagues) but, in real life, developing an additional pitch isn't that rare. Pretty much everyone starts out with a fastball. Then you generally learn a curve or a slider. A change up is usually added in college or the minors. IN fact, I bet that's pretty frequent for starters. I think learning a curve at that level would be difficult but could still happen. A change isn't that hard to learn and most (not all) should be able to develop at least a mediocre one.

As I went from elementary to high school I added a slider, curve, change, sinker and splitter. I probably should have focued on just two or three, but I was able to throw each of them at least mediocrely at various times. Yu Darvish throws seven pitches. I'm betting he didn't have all seven of them mastered when he went pro...

[sandman2575]

Originally Posted by majesty95

I don't know how needed it is in game ( almost always play historical leagues) but, in real life, developing an additional pitch isn't that rare. Pretty much everyone starts out with a fastball. Then you generally learn a curve or a slider. A change up is usually added in college or the minors. IN fact, I bet that's pretty frequent for starters. I think learning a curve at that level would be difficult but could still happen. A change isn't that hard to learn and most (not all) should be able to develop at least a mediocre one.

Great points. I'd like to see pitchers in OOTP develop a new pitch more frequently, but agree the *type* of pitch matters. It would be unrealistic for a finesse pitcher to come to spring training featuring a new fastball (although cutter might be another story). And pitchers aren't going to learn something as pedestrian as a curveball, since if they're going to throw a curve, they've likely already got one by the time they're drafted.

But type of curveball could be another matter. It could be realistic (and frankly, pretty cool) to see the occasional storyline like: "Simmons enters spring training featuring a new knuckle curve, which he told reporters he'd been working on over the winter with pitching coach etc. etc." Some of the more 'exotic' pitches -- knuckle curve, circle change -- might be good candidates for a pitcher to learn, under the right circumstances (and again, not often, but more often than is currently the case in OOTP...)

[Hotwheelz]

I've always liked the idea of choosing an area for a prospect to focus on. Whether its working on stamina or another pitch.

[Painmantle]

it is a rare occurrence to say the least,I think there are more guys developing a new pitch than most realize, the fact is most people don't look at every pitcher of every league in their files. The only ones you notice are basically your own pitchers

In the current season ML files covering all levels there are over 4,600 Pitchers. If the development rate for pitchers developing new pitches was 1/2 of 1%, 23 guys would develop new pitches and if none of those guys are guys you are paying attention to (usually guys in your organization) you'd never know it happened.

So the chances of one player that you have, are pay attention to, and desire to develop another pitch who could actually be a ML Started if he developed a new pitch, actually doing it..is pretty much like hitting the lottery

[majesty95]

The problem is, far more than 23 pitchers learn a new pitch each year. I would think there are at least handful in each organization working on a new pitch. As I stated, a change up isn't that hard to learn (nor is a splitter, sinker or cutter). They are mostly just grips and learning how to control the ball after learning how it moves out of your hand. If a guy can't learn to throw a basic change up or sinker to go with a fastball and slider or curve then he's probbaly destined for a spot in the McDonlads drive thru line any way.

[Hotwheelz]

Originally Posted by majesty95

The problem is, far more than 23 pitchers learn a new pitch each year. I would think there are at least handful in each organization working on a new pitch. As I stated, a change up isn't that hard to learn (nor is a splitter, sinker or cutter). They are mostly just grips and learning how to control the ball after learning how it moves out of your hand. If a guy can't learn to throw a basic change up or sinker to go with a fastball and slider or curve then he's probbaly destined for a spot in the McDonlads drive thru line any way.

I couldn't even learn to throw a proper fastball lol

[Painmantle]

Originally Posted by majesty95

The problem is, far more than 23 pitchers learn a new pitch each year. I would think there are at least handful in each organization working on a new pitch. As I stated, a change up isn't that hard to learn (nor is a splitter, sinker or cutter). They are mostly just grips and learning how to control the ball after learning how it moves out of your hand. If a guy can't learn to throw a basic change up or sinker to go with a fastball and slider or curve then he's probbaly destined for a spot in the McDonlads drive thru line any way.

My numbers were strictly hypothetical to make a point. And that point being, I believe there are a lot more guys learning pitches than we all realize, we just aren't paying attention to anybody but our own players. Until someone actually comes up with an analysis of an actual league and ALL of it's players and with an ample sample size of seasons, there is absolutely no way to know how many guys are learning pitches and if it is "too rare" It's all just conjecture at this point. Everything in thread is based on opinion and not actual facts.

I too believe that it might be too rare (But I'm way too lazy to run a test, and don't really think we really need 100's of guys learinig new pitches), . If everyone looked at this from the viewpoint that everyone is pretty much working on adding new pitches and the guys who actually have one show up in his ratings are the ones who developed one good enough to justify being rated it would be a non issue.

And I think I remember a member of OOTP staff chiming in on a thread about this very subject once a few versions back and basically said "making it an option to train players in a new pitch is just an abuse waiting to happen, everyone would do it and it wouldn't be something special when it happened." <------ This is not a quote, this is a paraphrase of what I think I remember...I have been known to misremember before

[Shadoshryke]

Originally Posted by sandman2575

Does anyone else feel that pitchers developing a new pitch is a little *too rare* in OOTP? (Not just RPs developing a 3rd pitch, but in general.)

Not saying it should happen frequently. But seems to me it shouldn't be quite so extraordinarily rare, especially with young pitchers developing in the minors, or pitchers coming out of spring training.

I for one would like to see this more often.

Ever so often I decide I want a pitcher to have an additional pitch. I then go into the player editor during preseason and put a 10 into that pitch rating. Then the pitcher develops during their career. They develop faster during Pre-season that during the season. Sometimes they can get to 60 during pre-season and then only improve by 5 during the season. The pitchers also seem to get injured more in their first year with that "low rating" pitch.

May not actually have a higher injury chance, but to me it "appears" they tire and get injured more when they have a rating on a pitch that is under 50.

[majesty95]

Originally Posted by Painmantle

My numbers were strictly hypothetical to make a point. And that point being, I believe there are a lot more guys learning pitches than we all realize, we just aren't paying attention to anybody but our own players. Until someone actually comes up with an analysis of an actual league and ALL of it's players and with an ample sample size of seasons, there is absolutely no way to know how many guys are learning pitches and if it is "too rare" It's all just conjecture at this point. Everything in thread is based on opinion and not actual facts.

I too believe that it might be too rare (But I'm way too lazy to run a test, and don't really think we really need 100's of guys learinig new pitches), . If everyone looked at this from the viewpoint that everyone is pretty much working on adding new pitches and the guys who actually have one show up in his ratings are the ones who developed one good enough to justify being rated it would be a non issue.

And I think I remember a member of OOTP staff chiming in on a thread about this very subject once a few versions back and basically said "making it an option to train players in a new pitch is just an abuse waiting to happen, everyone would do it and it wouldn't be something special when it happened." <------ This is not a quote, this is a paraphrase of what I think I remember...I have been known to misremember before

1. We shouldn't expect someone to spend hours upon hours doing an analysis of 4,500+ players before we even become open to the idea that something is amiss. That's not practical.

2. I'm not advocating having a "learn pitch" button or some setting that can be exploited. I'm simply suggesting that whatever modifier is used in determining which pitchers develop new pitches be tuned to allow more to do so.

I think, for the most part, any pitcher projected as a SP that has only two pitches should be learning a third pitch. Now, there may be factors that prevent it, in which case they would wind up in the bullpen. But any organization that sees a pitcher as a SP who comes to them with only two pitches, is going to teach them a third. How well they learn that pitch should then be decided by their intelligence, work ethic and coachability.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by Hotwheelz

I couldn't even learn to throw a proper fastball lol

I've never played baseball competitively, but I know how to throw a fastball, a changeup, a splitter and a cutter, but good luck getting me to throw any of them with much control at much more than 55 mph lol. I did once try to teach myself a slider, but my elbow complained after double digit attempts, so I stopped lol.

[Rain King]

It should be noted that the game reflects what a pitcher has that is "game ready". While there may be a lot of pitchers in real baseball working on pitches, how many of those pitches are ever actually used in a competitive setting to any significant amount?

I do think this could be made a lot better down the line and that pitching coaches and teammates should have a role in it, but it is a complicated thing to get right without messing up game balance.