Most NOT Wanted List

[USF]

Any ideas on how collectively as a group of commissioners we can band together to post a NOT WANTED list of GMs that simply waste a leagues time by either joining and never really joining or someone that joins but is highly inactive and then is removed or disappears?

So much time goes into running an OOTP league and I know there are hundreds of you (commissioners) out there that must deal with this on a yearly basis.

Thoughts?

Jason

[electrickeeper]

I have a personal list for my own use, but everyone interacts differently with others, so I'm not sue how useful it would be.

[USF]

Originally Posted by electrickeeper

I have a personal list for my own use, but everyone interacts differently with others, so I'm not sue how useful it would be.

I'd be happy to share my list with you privately if you want to exchange the information.

Just PM me

[USF]

Ok guys, ton of interest and no worries if you sent me the info privately.

I'm not going to publicly bash anyone but, privately any commissioner can ask me about a person and forum name and I will look through the list received and either say its on it or not. You can decide to do what you want with that knowledege. Before I share any information with you - you will need to confirm you are the commissioner of a league by giving me the referenced league website where I can confirm this information.

Commissioners work their asses off to operate an online league using OOTP - not to mention the server$$ and the time it takes to post files etc..

Time we put a bit of respect back into the role and not let these bottom feeders bring good leagues down.

[coljesep]

Originally Posted by USF

Any ideas on how collectively as a group of commissioners we can band together to post a NOT WANTED list of GMs that simply waste a leagues time by either joining and never really joining or someone that joins but is highly inactive and then is removed or disappears?

So much time goes into running an OOTP league and I know there are hundreds of you (commissioners) out there that must deal with this on a yearly basis.

Thoughts?

Jason

I'm not sure you want to do that to be honest.

[Bluenoser]

You start doing that and you better be very careful. You'll be opening a can of worms that can easily come back to bite you.

[coljesep]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

You start doing that and you better be very careful. You'll be opening a can of worms that can easily come back to bite you.

Exactly, and who is to say that your experience is in fact what happened? You could just vet your potential new members a little bit better, and not take just the first guy who responds to a forum post.

[soadeathdealer]

I keep track of of gms by that i mean they go in my google contact lis in that league group for that league and if they leave I document the reason for future reference and in case a commish asks about a former gm I can give them an acurate info and in case they apply for the league or another league I co-commish or run ill be able to look back and see why they left.

I have banned some guys from leagues and some guys have joined and not export and I have a good amount that had to leave due to new kids or work . I just keep the info for my use and if a commish comes asking about a certain gm ill let them know how they were in my league if they were in my league .

I dont see the need to publish it for all to see since some of those guys that didnt export or was inactive might have changed in 6 year or 2 years so posting it might hurt their chances at a second chance. But my standing ban list is banned for life or more chances. My ban list only has like 8 people on.

I could see perhaps a website where u could list and post guys that are banned so other commishes can see but then you still get into the possibility of anyone could post anyone no way to verify the poster .


My self I like to talk to my gms and see if they know the pot gm and I will also reach out to other gms just to get a feel for the pot gm but sometimes I take a chance on a pot gm and sometimes ill look on the OOTP boards and see what the pot gm posts to get a feel for em. I try to give people a chance

[threesportgeek]

I firmly believe more so that should be a list of leagues you should not join as well. The Commish is equally accountable for running a legit league than a GM than is negligent and doesn't play fairly. I assure yoiu that in my adventures since V12 that there is still some leagues that can't play nice and choose the low road. Perhaps, that what is why a GM left a league in the first place. Do you think that the Commish is going to give a certain GM a good review be because the GM called the Commish out? Honestly, I don't think there is a way to police either way. It becomes a way of he said\he said.

[coljesep]

Originally Posted by threesportgeek

I firmly believe more so that should be a list of leagues you should not join as well. The Commish is equally accountable for running a legit league than a GM than is negligent and doesn't play fairly. I assure yoiu that in my adventures since V12 that there is still some leagues that can't play nice and choose the low road. Perhaps, that what is why a GM left a league in the first place. Do you think that the Commish is going to give a certain GM a good review be because the GM called the Commish out? Honestly, I don't think there is a way to police either way. It becomes a way of he said\he said.

A while back I proposed to ootp that they confirm online leagues almost how Twitter makes accounts for celebs and such confirmed. Like if leagues hit certain checkpoints, they can become a verified online league. Or earn a rating...Because you're right, there are guys who are aerial online league openers and closers too.

[Winnipeg59]

This is a curious thread. Almost hate to add 2c...but will.
Who are you trying to help here (both as a Commissioner and as a GM)?

If a Commissioner has a bad experience with a GM, then that should be noted by the Commissioner.

If a GM has a bad experience (for whatever reason) with a league and/or Commissioner, then that should also be a learning experience.

You both move on.

If a Commissioner and/or league has enough people of like mind, then it survives. If nobody aligns with the Commissioner and/or league vision, then it probably folds.

If a Commissioner doesn't do basic homework, like a couple of questions to the prospective GM, some inquiries among his current GM's or a simply e-mail to another Commissioner or two asking about a candidate, then that's on him.

And if a GM develops a reputation, then they will have fewer places to play. That may prompt them to start their own league (which is fine, if you go back to the top of this thread and start again...if you have enough people that align with your vision, great).

I have researched leagues, joined some, found that they might not be the ideal situation for me personally and have resigned. No harm, no foul. Most still exist without me and most are full, which means that there is clearly enough support for that league vision and collection of GM's. Fantastic! Just not for me. I would strongly suggest however that you kindly inform your GM of that, it borders on rude to just disappear (after any length of time).

Other leagues I have been in for some time, but changes occur in ones life and you have to make tough decisions with your online time. That's fine too.

And while you are in a league, participate fully. Debate any issues, contribute to any discussion and engage in a constructive manner!

I think a little due diligence and some courtesy and respect on both sides goes a lot farther than a "Most Not Wanted List" personally.

Just my 2c...

[kq76]

An important point, I think, is that most people, hopefully, learn from their mistakes. Someone might realize that a league that does certain things isn't right for them and so in the future they'll stay away from leagues that do similar things. Does that make them the GM bad or the league bad? Of course not. Or someone might realize that doing a certain thing is greatly frowned upon and then hopefully they'll learn not to do it in their next league. Some times the league and a GM are a good match, but the timing just isn't right.

And while GMs really should let the league know if they're dropping out, I also think leagues should state up front their expectations of GMs not just expect that everyone should know what's expected of them. For example, leagues should state explicitly in their rules that if you're dropping out to please either post on the league's boards or email the commish. And if leagues expect GMs to export at least once a week or for them to message why they aren't (or risk being dropped from the league) then they should explicitly state that in their rules. People say others should use common sense, but I argue that there often isn't a common sense. For example, I don't think it's necessary to export every sim while some commissioners do seem to expect that. Not everyone has the same expectations of others and if we don't have the same expectations of others then how can we possibly know what's expected of us if it's not spelled out ahead of time.

Whenever I have a problem with someone (anywhere, not just OOTP), I like to ask myself, "Could I have done something better? Were my instructions not clear enough? Was the manner in which I spoke with them too abrupt or harsh?". I find a lot of the times people put all the blame on the other person when a relationship falls apart when as a third party I often see fault on the part of both parties. I'm more thinking work relationships here, but I suppose it's probably true for personal relationships too.

All in all, I think we hear enough complaints that there aren't enough GMs for the openings there are that it's probably not the best idea to start a most not wanted list. Instead of someone maybe learning from their mistakes and being a better GM in a different league a person who gets on this list might just say screw it and walk away from OOTP entirely. And, while that might please their previous commissioner, that helps no one. It doesn't help the previous league (what's done is done), it doesn't necessarily help leagues trying to fill spots (sure, it might weed out some would-be bad GMs, but again it might also be weeding out some good would-be GMs), it doesn't help the GM on the list, and it doesn't help OOTP if the customer quits being a customer.

If you are determined to do something like this though then I think it's critical that you state, in detail, why you think that person is a bad GM, not just list their identifying information. The reason why is I don't think everyone would agree with every reason. For example, I've seen some leagues get upset at GMs for tanking and for some leagues that's perfectly acceptable. That way, with listing detailed reasons, other commissioners can either agree to stay away from that person for the reason listed or decide to give the person another chance.

[RchW]

Privately I suppose people can share anything they want. What bothers me is any possibility that these boards on which we are all guests through the good graces of OOTPD would be used by other guests to prepare a blacklist of people without their knowledge.

edit

Privately does not include the board PM system.

[soadeathdealer]

Yea i have never been a part of a league with a bad commish but i know there are some.

I would say that if u want to have a place to post cheaters then make a website but u still need to have proof posted . I remember i asked if i was allowed to post on the boards a cheater just a beware and I provided proof like a ton of proof logs and other things and was allowed to so i did and other viewed it and I hope it helped others . But posting proven cheaters i one thing I dont think its a bad idea to have a website or what not to list them if there is proof.

We are guest on ootp forum and we should ask if certain posts are ok or not i mean I see gms blasting a league or commish just cuz they were booted i mean i have seen some bad posts i mean there are warnings and there are off ur rocker posts.

I just think keeping your own notes is best unless you have proof of a cheater then posting something where might not be a bad idea with the proof. I know that when I find a cheater i inform other commishes I know and provide proof so that they can make a decision with information should that person try to get into their league.

Sharing knowledge is great if you have had really bad gms then share with other commishes and if you have been in bad leagues share it but dont bash leagues or people provide proof. hell when i booted a gm i emailed the league and posted on slack the screenshot of the convo for my gms to see so they know y i booted the guy .

Hell I would like to know if a pot gm is known for exporting once and never again which is by i talk to other gms and other commishes and do some research and I have a application pot gms have to complete so certain questions get answered.

I suggest as a commish you look at ur server logs ever once in awhile the ftp ones and that will tell u whos exporting and if its the same person or not unless the person is really skilled

Edit: Also note that when u post on a site the cheater or bad gm or commish may change their information I had a gm once he was in the league and left with another gm that gm was booted but the gm ended up he changed his information all of it the ootp forums username email name everything new identity hes filled out my application and he was let in the league as he stated he was new to ootp so hard to do research if the guys new and his ootp account showed that he was new. I got suspicious after a little while and did my log checks and saw he used the same IP as the other guy so you have to watch out for that to . So its hard to stop a cheater if they go to great lengths to make a new identity .

[stevem810]

I'd rather see a good GM list.

In a way I'm kidding as I just don't think lists of any kind are a good idea and may cause more harm than good.

The other thought that I'll add is to chat a bit with prospective GM's and get to know who they are. Nothing wrong with asking for a reference if you want to follow up that way. I'm happy letting interested people peruse the league a bit...join the chat group...so we can get to know each other.

[coljesep]

Listen there is no doubt there are bad GM's out there, and bad leagues, and bad everything.

But a "list" isn't the answer because a) who is in charge of said list? How do we know you yourself don't suck as a GM or commish? b) all it does is spread negativity throughout a community and blacklist people who may have just gotten in a disagreement with somebody and found their name on a list.

The truth is, if you are constantly joining leagues that fold - then you need to do a better job at vetting the leagues you wish to join. Joining the second you see a post of an opening, might not be a great idea... especially if that league frequently posts openings... talk to the Commish, find out about league participation, sim schedule, how long the current league has been running. If he tells you this is his 5th league in 6 years.... maybe think twice about joining.

As for recruiting GM's. I recruit first and foremost through my current GM's. Secondly, dont just take the first guy to say "i want that open team," - you should be looking for good GM's, not warm body GM's. If you make a habit of just taking anybody who answers the call, then your recruitment efforts are the problem - and you might end up on the bad commish list after a few times!

[USF]

I appreciate the responses and everyone has good or bad experiences in a league and there are many factors that are attributed to that outcome. I have been running online leagues for 20+ years and trust me I have seen everything. My intial post was very specific for root cause. I have received several responses and for those that don't want to participate that is cool.

Cheers

[coljesep]

Originally Posted by USF

I appreciate the responses and everyone has good or bad experiences in a league and there are many factors that are attributed to that outcome. I have been running online leagues for 20+ years and trust me I have seen everything. My intial post was very specific for root cause. I have received several responses and for those that don't want to participate that is cool.

Cheers

That's great but just be careful.

You wouldn't want a list to become public that says something like "Commissioners who make the playoffs every year in their own league" right?

Maple Marauders

It's all about perception. Maybe that doesn't bother people, maybe it does.

Your experience with a GM might not be the same as other people's experience... just as some might question the legitimacy of a league where the commish is always one of the best teams, while others might find it fine.

So if you're going to go out of your way to make sure others don't get a fair chance at playing in online leagues you need to be prepared for the possibility that if your online reputation is not squeaky clean then potential GM's who wouldn't make your "list" will find out and not apply for membership.

[USF]

Originally Posted by coljesep

That's great but just be careful.

You wouldn't want a list to become public that says something like "Commissioners who make the playoffs every year in their own league" right?

Maple Marauders

It's all about perception. Maybe that doesn't bother people, maybe it does.

Your experience with a GM might not be the same as other people's experience... just as some might question the legitimacy of a league where the commish is always one of the best teams, while others might find it fine.

So if you're going to go out of your way to make sure others don't get a fair chance at playing in online leagues you need to be prepared for the possibility that if your online reputation is not squeaky clean then potential GM's who wouldn't make your "list" will find out and not apply for membership.

I have no issues standing by my own reputation. I have over 120+ members of 5 leagues in 20+ years of online league play. That is the furthest thing from my mind. What is on my mind is the time wasters out there that join leagues and waste time for comissioners as I specifically stated in the 1st post....

[coljesep]

Originally Posted by USF

I have no issues standing by my own reputation. I have over 120+ members of 5 leagues in 20+ years of online league play. That is the furthest thing from my mind. What is on my mind is the time wasters out there that join leagues and waste time for comissioners as I specifically stated in the 1st post....

I think you're missing my point.

A guy who wastes your time, might not waste somebody else's time. Maybe he found something he didn't like about your league that caused him to leave?

Just as you stand by your reputation, maybe others don't agree on your reputation - so you wouldn't want some list going around that doesn't allow you the chance to defend yourself right?

I think if you take your time recruiting and actually vet (maybe extremely vet... get it) your potential owners then you won't have a problem, rather than creating some list of people who cannot defend themselves against a reputation attack.